Will Microsoft, Xbox and PMDG teams collectively find a way to update nav data?

General Discussion & Community Support General Discussion
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49

Fully agree, but I also appreciate and want to acknowledge when they do make an effort, when they are responsive, and I believe they genuinely do care. I can’t deny the frustrations, but I’m still here because I do want MSFS to succeed and grow, I do see incremental progress in functionality and stability, and a consistent long-term effort to be engaged with the user base (even if there could be more). Not defending, just acknowledging the positive aspects.

The pattern I’ve learned here is that sometimes in all the technical and legal complexity Microsoft, Asobo, and developers are navigating - the customer perspective gets lost.

For that reason I want to acknowlege this forum - without it my only avenue to get the customer perspective noticed would be to bother management (since I find Zendesk to be dismissive about most issues). I appreciate the forum is available and that I can express frustrations, be corrected for wrong assumptions, and also raise issues of concern. It has it’s own frustrations from a customer perspective, but I’m still here using it.

I’ve been clear and vocal to management that I have money to spend but am not becuase of the way it looks. MSFS was unstable when I started, and every single support document says you must disable 3rd party content to troubleshoot. Purchases are of “tokens” not products and services (contradicted by the terms of sale, which specify products and services), and refund policy actively keeps me from buying things I would like to try. But that’s another discussion!

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50

I want to voice my agreement here, too. I do believe they care and I do see efforts being made to move the sim and our concerns surrounding it forward, but there is still work to be done in this manner.

I know I’ve been thankful and have given thanks when it is due.

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51

While at Aerosoft I looked at this issue for a long time (where we support Navigraph and NavDataPro (Lufthansa data), just as now with PMDG, but it is really a very complex issue. You are talking about a very substantial amount of coding (months) that touches the very heart of the navigation system. The navdata inside the sim is implemented in a way that makes it, let’s say, less easy to access when compared with the external datasets. All these things are the same for all developers, and thus, you will find that virtually all developers who work with hand-coded systems (so not based on default systems) prefer to use external databases.

Now part of this is, without a doubt, based on old habits and the growth of the Xbox platform surely changes things (for the better, we love working for that platform). But for now, we want to see how things play out between Navigraph and Microsoft. If there is anything that we could do to assist, we would be very happy to do so. When that path really closes down, we will have another discussion on the internal database and do some market research on how many people would welcome it. Always keep in mind that forum users do not represent the vast majority of customers!

In the meantime, I will look at the text we use on the Marketplace and see if we want to change that.

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52

Thank you for the reply. I’m sorry we got off on the wrong foot. I do appreciate you taking the time to engage, I appreciate the quality of the PMDG products I’ve seen so far, and I appreciate the challenges of adapting for new platforms - even if I am being critical and expressing frustrations about this topic.

As you describe, the problem of stale custom navdata on Xbox is not limited to the PMDG 737, but will be the same problem for other products and other developers who might offer planes on Xbox as well. It is a valid problem to discuss, even if I “do not represent the vast majority of customers.”

It is a simple fact that, today, if a customer buys the PMDG 737 on Xbox, you get AIRAC cycle v2204 (April 2022) and it can not be updated, even if you pay for a Navigraph subscription for that purpose. If you release the 777 for Xbox, I can assume it will have the same limitation. I’m not the first to point it out, or to be surprised by it.

As someone relatively new to flight simulation - I do not have the benefit of knowing the history of flight sim on PC, but I can undertand how the hardware, OS, simulator, and 3rd party planes are all separate, and enthusiasts learn to tinker to put it together for themselves with community help.

What I’m trying to voice (perhaps badly) is that Microsoft and developers have invited new users via the closed platform - where everything appears to come from 1 source: Microsoft. The hardware, OS, simulator, data for weather, traffic, navigation, and even content all come from the “Marketplace”. It’s presented as an ecosystem, and for a new user there is a natural expextation that it all “just works”. There is a learning curve to find out it’s an experiment in progress, pushing the boundaries, with lots of potential and some real gotchas. Also, it’s not clear who provides what, and when you start asking for help, you start learning who’s who. So I hope you can forgive my early attempts to uderstand with assumptions, some of which were not accurate.

I recognize that it is a monumental - and ambitious - task to wrangle the extremely complex parts of flight simulation into a closed system like Xbox so you can “just fly”. And I appreciate not only the effort from all parties, but also the results so far, and recognize this stale navdata is just one unanticipated consequence of an otherwise amazing result for customers. I enjoy it thoroughly when it works.

I also believe that a solution can be found that doesn’t require re-inventing the wheel - and if not, simply that the marketing should be clearer so customers can make informed decisions.

Thank you.

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53

Hi,

We are working actively on a mechanism for navdata updates on Xbox, together with PMDG. This work is very much ongoing and we have not yet hit any definite roadblock. Just have a little more patience.

Kind regards,

Stephen
Navigraph

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54

@NixonRedgrave,

As I’m sure you’re familiar with the forum Code of Conduct, you will undoubtedly have seen this section before (bolded emphasis added):

:small_blue_diamond:Community Managers & other Microsoft Flight Simulator Staff

The most frequent staff members you will see posting on the forums are the community managers and moderators. We enforce the CoC and respond to threads and posts, whether it is to address an issue or simply having fun.

If you don’t see us responding, it isn’t because we are ignoring you. Sometimes we don’t have a good answer, or we are looking for an answer or we cannot comment on the issue at the time.

We also have other work we have to do that isn’t on the forums so if you don’t see us around, we are working on something else for you!

The community team member list can be found here.

The Community Management team reads almost every message posted to these forums, and we have been actively following this thread from the very beginning. In this case, both @Chewwy94 and I have been working behind the scenes to find out if there’s more information we can share to address the questions in the OP. For reasons you no doubt understand, it’s essential that we do not post anything that is incomplete, incorrect, or confidential, so oftentimes that means we need to reach out to other members of the team to make sure we understand the issue fully and know exactly what information we can share with you before we comment.

Thanks,
MSFS Team

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Thank you Stephen, again. And to everyone, thank you for engaging in conversation, for helping me to understand the challenges, and letting us know it is on your radar.

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56

Why not just let us know that you’re looking into this up front?

Sure, you have told us repeatedly that you read all the posts here and that is a very convenient way to “umbrella” any of our feelings that you’re not here.

Is there good reason to not just pop in when several days have gone by and repeated posts have been made in a thread such as this where you can’t just say, “Hey, we’re hearing your concerns and are looking for answers.” or something along those lines?

Why does it seem that, often, the times you do post is as you have done here — in defense.

Why not just be more communicative initially rather than leaving us to feel compelled to call you out?

This happens enough times where it’s not really uncommon.

The reality is, there are many, many other instances where no one from the CM team appears until someone, such as myself, has to make some combative post to draw you out.

I absolutely abhor feeling like I’m “the bad kid” around here and am on some list of users who are trouble, but I often feel backed in a corner.

I’d so much rather be in a position where I’m not feeling like I have to beg for CM input on hotbed topics.

Am I just some jerk user here who is so totally offbase in his perception?

How about a pair of :eyes: that tells us CMs are actively monitoring a thread? Or something along those lines if posting words would violate your internal policies?

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57

Could it be as simple as having a “Navigraph Data” … app? … on the Marketplace, which does 1 thing: enter credentials so that other addons like PMDG (but also others in the future) have a path to download the periodic updated data file, which would come via the authorized Xbox servers? Again I’m not a programmer, but from a customer perspective it seems that would be feasible and not compromise the closed ecosystem?

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58

Hello @NixonRedgrave,

There are many times where someone from the community will bring up a concern that, for any number of different reasons, we may not be able to comment about publicly. If we responded with “We’re looking into this,” to each of those posts, it would set a false expectation that a response will be forthcoming when one is not.

There are some cases where we know the answer to a player’s question and will respond immediately. There are other times where we don’t know the answer and have to connect with someone else from the team (who is busy working on their regular duties and may not be free to respond to our request immediately) to get an answer for you. This can sometimes take a few business days of back-and-forth messaging. And there are yet other times where we know the answer but are unable to share that information because it is confidential.

Our team works M-F during regular business hours. This thread was created on Friday afternoon, so when you say “several days have gone by”, that may be true in an absolute sense, but in terms of working hours, it was slightly more than one business day. During that time, multiple CMs were working to gather more information about this issue before we made any kind of statement on behalf of the team.

Once again, I will refer you to this section of the Code of Conduct and kindly ask that you keep this in mind if you don’t see a response from a CM to any particular topic:

If you don’t see us responding, it isn’t because we are ignoring you. Sometimes we don’t have a good answer, or we are looking for an answer or we cannot comment on the issue at the time.

Between me, Jayne, iinKWest, and Chewwy, one or more CMs read almost every single post written on the forums, and we also monitor most other communications platforms where people discuss Microsoft Flight Simulator, including (but no limited to) Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Discord, Reddit, YouTube, and Twitch. As a team, we regularly meet to discuss emerging issues that are generating lots of comments from the community. Sometimes we are able to respond almost immediately, sometimes our responses can take longer while we track down the right information to share with you, and other times we may not be able to comment at all.

Thanks,
MSFS Team

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59

Seedy.

I’m trying. I really am. It might not appear that way, but I am.

60

I don’t want to take the conversation off topic - but would like to provide a little bit of constructive feedback to the forum team on this issue, from a customer perspective.

First the acknowledgements - I and I’m sure many do appreciate the existence of the forum, the effort required to run it, and that it is not an easy task. I recognize you do so under the rules and policies set by a corporation, and thank you for all you do.

From a customer perspective, I share Nixon’s frustrations. It does often feel like genuine concerns are not heard when there is silence. I believe there is a percentage of collective frustration - larger than zero - that could be removed with a little more acknowledgement, especially for new users. As Nixon says, a simple “we hear you and are looking in to it.” is often all that would be needed - reducing frustration and the need to raise TOS issues. When a paying customer has a valid concern, and comes to this official support forum, but the only official response is the TOS, it doesn’t help from a customer perspective. Thanks for listening.

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Community Managers posting the same message on every thread would cause a chain reaction of escalation of tempers and insinuation and threats. For example, “Why didn’t Asobo fix [insert problem here] in Sim Update 15? The Community Manager replied to the thread saying they are listening, why didn’t Asobo fix the problem?? [insert expletives] They don’t care!”

Less is better than more communication. De-escalation is important on public forums.

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According to what was posted here by Seedy, they are listening, therefore their “communication” is implied — they have communicated that they are listening by saying as much in the CoC.

If that is the case, then your example of outrage is, apparently, warranted — they said they are listening.

Regardless, the outrage occurs all the time. Like them, I read nearly every post. I see it whether or not they post to a thread.

That is my takeaway.

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63

Your views on this topic exactly match mine, and I’m sure other users feel the same way. I think the point about potential delays from SeedyL is fair, but the fact is strategic silence on uncomfortable issues is the way MS has chosen to deal with many topics.

That sometimes makes sense, but is also a convenient way to avoid confronting difficult topics directly. If PMDG and Navigraph can confront them publicly, so can MS.

To be clear, that’s not a personal criticism of CMs, as they are following company and team policies and generally do a great job.

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64

Since I do not use Navigraph, how could I update my PMDG 737 navdata even when I am on PC?

I’m replying late to your question, sorry. I’m on Xbox, but I believe that when you buy the PMDG 737 (on either PC or Xbox) it comes with a customized Navigraph navigation data … file? … that is provided by Navigraph as a “courtesey” (by some arrangement between Navigraph and PMDG). The navdata supplied when I purchased the 737 last week was v2204 (April 2022), yours might be different.

My understanding is that - regardless of whether you are on PC or Xbox - the only way to get this file updated is to have a Navigraph Unlimited subscription. Since this has become a topic of concern, it’s possible that Navigraph may grant PMDG an occasional courtesy updated navdata file - which I presume would come via an update to the PMDG plane itself - but I’m only speculating about this.

So although this thread was really about there being no path to update the custom navdata on Xbox, you’ve raised a related concern that even on PC the navdata doesn’t get updated without either a subscription to Navigraph, or, an occaisional courtesey update from Navigraph via PMDG.

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65

Hello @NixonRedgrave,

Please keep in mind that when we say we are “listening”, many players (not necessarily you, but certainly lots of people) choose to interpret that comment differently than how we said it. What we mean by “listen” is very much the dictionary definition of the word: to hear something with thoughtful attention; to give consideration.

Many players think we mean something else when we say we’re listening, though. We very often read comments (again, not necessarily from you in particular) to the effect of, “The devs didn’t do what I asked! They don’t listen!” I’m sure you see the problem with that statement: listening to what you have to say and doing what you want are not the same thing.

If you haven’t seen it before, I suggest reading this post from the Ask A Game Dev (AAGD) blog. Please note that I didn’t write this, nor did anyone from the Microsoft Flight Simulator team. In fact, it was originally posted in 2014, years before development work on MSFS even started. As a long-time engaged fan who has actively participated in the official forums/subreddits not only of MSFS but also in the communities for many other games, I personally found this very enlightening the first time I read it.

Excerpt from the blog post follows:

…one recurring note that stood out was that sometimes developers are in the wrong, that we have made mistakes, and that we should listen. I totally agree in that we developers are sometimes wrong, that we make mistakes, and that we should listen. However, that brings up a rather important question: “Who should we be listening to?”

The answer, of course, is everyone. So today, in a special Labor Day weekend edition of AAGD, we can examine how developers get and parse feedback.

One thing that developers always want is feedback. We want to learn what went right, what went wrong, and how we can make things better. However, it’s important to keep the big picture in mind - you always want to try to make changes that would maximize overall happiness and engagement among all players, and not just the ones who are the loudest. That means that we can’t just do what the very loud minority wants - we need to be sure that it’s true to the vision of the game we want to make, and for the entire playerbase.

[…]

I think it’s important for the really engaged fans to remember that we are listening. We do care what you have to say. But though we do listen to you, it doesn’t mean that we are going to do what you want. We have millions of people who want different things, and it’s important to remember that we value them too. It’s ok to disagree with the developers. But I just wanted to show that we have access to a lot more information that we have to consider when we make our decisions, far more than what you see in the forums, comment sections, and youtube videos.

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Hi Seedy, thanks for engaging. I’m going to respectfully ask that even moderators keep this thread on topic, please.

Also, in response, I believe what Nixon, I and others are trying to say is - we understand that you all “listen”, it would be nice to get a few more actual responses, as simple as: “thanks for bringing this to our attention, we’re looking in to it.” Just a simple acknowledgement is easy, and is all that is being asked. Thanks again.

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67

I am with you guys that bought the 737 on Xbox, just like I did, the day it came out. Had I known it was going to have outdated AIRAC data, and absolutely no way to update it, I would have held off on the purchase. This seems like something that should have been thought about when PMDG was developing the 737. I also think this will hurt the sale of the 777 (unless this issue is fixed by then or the 777 handles this issue different than the 737) as I can assure the OP, that we here, talking about this are not some small minority. It may seem it because not many have posted in this thread, but from what my buddies tell me, they will not post anything because they feel it will not lead to anything/fall on deaf ears.

Everyone I know that have bought the 737 (I would put that number at about 25, give or take a few) is very disappointed about the nav data (AIRAC) situation. I would bet a lot of money, that many of the people who purchased the 737, based on the cost of it alone, are not the more casual simmers, however, more advanced simmers who expect high quality aircraft (which PMDG delivered on) WITH the expected data/updates to go along with said aircraft, which they failed miserably at.

Heck, why can’t PMDG put on the Marketplace an AIRAC Cycle Update, which would be their data say every three months (since not a whole lot changes from each monthly AIRAC cycle update so I would not see the need for a monthly update) which they could charge $5.00 (or more) for and allow the customers to decide if it is worth it or not. I have Navigraph Unlimited, but I have spent easily over $1,500 on this sim, so $5 every three months would be nothing to me to keep the 737 updated, and would be well worth it for me.

If I could get a refund, I would apply for one and so would most of my 25 or so friends. In this situation, I think all of us who bought the 737 should be able to get a refund as there was no disclaimer about having the outdated AIRAC cycle, with no ability to update and with no option in the foreseeable future or possibly ever.

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68

I’ve learned a lot after posting this - and I might have been a bit less harsh had I known the history and the complex relationships between all the developers. That said, it was a pretty glaring oversight in my opinion.

I do believe Navigraph is working on a path to update navdata for PMDG on Xbox - as they posted above in the thread.

PMDG developed their 737 over a long period of time, and for multiple simulators (FSX, P3D, etc) and from what I understand, it made sense to them at the time to use a Navigraph data package. And, many advanced simmers do seem to subscribe to Navigraph on PC, so they have access to updated nav data even if it costs a subscription. And, that makes sense as it is a huge amount of real-world data that costs a lot of money.

I also believe that Microsoft is constantly improving, and after the initial launch, and massive growth, they’ve decided to invest in more development with the MSFS 2024 announcement - so I have to believe that the Navblue data in the sim will also improve. MSFS does offer this navdata via an API for developers to use, so that navdata is free (included) for users of MSFS.

It seems developers have a choice - to use their own custom navdata from other sources like PMDG does with Navigraph, and / or to use the native MSFS navdata, and / or a choice.

Apparently that’s not easy, as there are many different sets of data, types of data, and formats of navdata, and to change how a plane uses navdata might involve a lot of work. I also see that both Navblue and Navigraph are going to be using ARINC 424 format (I’m not technical enough to know what that means) so I’m not sure if that makes switching data sources easier in the future or not.

At any rate, I believe a solution is coming for PMDG planes on Xbox that provides a route to update the navdata.

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