Aerobatic planes with accurate out-of-the-envelope flight model

Aerobatic planes are missing some out of the envelope features that makes impossible to perform certain figures like snap rolls, knife edge spins, tumbles, and other advanced maneuvres. There are also problems with the ecessive roll inertia in Estra 330 and CAP10 at least.

Please fix them! Aerobatic pilots need realistic planes!

Thanks!

Only recently the level D full motion sims that airlines use for pilot training were fitted with “enhanced envelope” flight models. It’s extremely difficult to model the aircraft approaching a stall and post stall behavior is still mostly a guess. Not saying they can’t figure out how to do it, but at least for transport category airplanes, there really isn’t any data for post stall performance, as the aircraft are never intentionally taken into the post stall envelope as it would probably be fatal.

Maybe they do have data for light GA aircraft and that can be modeled to some extent, but it’s still amazing that even now, after all these years of aviation, those realms of flight aren’t exactly well modeled or even completely understood.

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Just take a look at the Aerofly FS2 Extra which has the best aerobatics flight model in any sim so far.
Generally one of the most underrated sims IMO.

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You should test how aerobatic plane perform:

  1. In reality.
  2. In X-Plane 11, DCS: world and Aerofly FS2.

So we just want the same in FS. To be at least as realistic as other flight sims. I’ve used them for competition traning without being laelled Level D or other expensive certifications.

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Agree, FS2 has one of the Best Extra 330, but not the only good one in simulation.

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This subject has been a big bone of contention since day 1. Many real world pilots have commented negatively, as have experienced simmers.

Personally I have the feeling that Asobo have gone backwards and now, after so many updates already, planes like the Pitts and the Extra are terrible to fly in harsh out of envelope situations. I don’t mention the other potential aircraft in the msfs hangar because they are so “1960s” with the flying characteristics they have. To get an idea of what moves should look like go to you tube and search for videos with pilots like Anna Kapenina, Jurgis Kairys, Patty Wagstaff…

I think the common issues are factors such as acceleration, deceleration, inertia, control authority, air conditions, control lag… Let me highlight some manouvers and the issues in msfs

“Cobra” take off. The aircraft accelerates, lifts to an (un)safe height, accelerates a bit more and goes vertical for a second or two before levelling off again. Msfs cannot recover anywhere near as fast as RW aircraft.

Knife edge. As the name implies - the plane flies s&l rolls 80 deg (left or right) and flies straight for this manoever. Usually the nose is pointed quite steeply up. Not impossible in msfs, but only for a very short moment before the plane sinks.

Side slip (s&l under power) . RW aerobatic planes can keep this up seemingly indefinitely. Great for low slow flypasts. Msfs - well, yes, you can SS, but only as a landing aid. Try to keep an SS s&l - sink rate way too high and results in crash.

Aileron roll and loop - just about the only moves you can really get away with in msfs.

Snap roll. Nope. “Snap, roll, crash” more likely

Vertical upwards aileron rolls. Two, maybe three times before the aircraft is in an unrecoverable death tumble. Watch a video on YT and some planes will do 5 or 6. Snap straight. Tailslide out. Or Lomcevak out.

Spins. Nope. Not even incipient. The minute, no second, you release the controls the aircraft self recovers.

Flat spins, inverted spins. Nope.

…and many more in the Aresti catalogue. About the only way to do aerobatics safely is to have at least 5000 feet under you at your expected exit point.

The basic issue is that all msfs sports aircraft tend to be only marginally snappier than their trainers, tourers etc. In all the years I have flown an FS program (since the first Bruce Artwick days) ther have been just a couple of aircraft that almost meet the requirements for aerobatics. By far the best was the Iris Christen Eagle in FSX days. Now we hope that third party freeware and payware devs can fix msfs flight dynamics. But from what I read, they all have issues because of the difficult msfs flight dynamis engine.

Does anyone reading this know whether there is an msfs cure planned or is there an FD programmer working on it?

P.S. I have searched the term aerobatics and most posts are several months old now. As if msfs / asobo are ignoring this subject for now. “Maybe it will go away if we don’t answer”. There is more discussion in many other fora about this, than here at msfs forum.

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Now why would forum moderators close my post and move it here? The reasen I started a new post is because any other aerobatics post was unanswered by the team and most were two months and older since any last reaonable answer. Even the Zendesk enquiries are being lost or ignored.

These aren’t just whims of a few moaning old flightsim hacks, they are prayers that remain unanswered. I note to that perhaps some of the original posters have simple given up because they are being ignored. I certainly feel ignored by the msfs dev team and I am definitely saddened by this. Yes, I do like and enjoy msfs, but I do worry that someone is deliberately putting a stranglehold on critical or uncomfortable queries.

To put a cynical hat on, it feels like a bunch of millenials ignoring the experience of people who actually wise enough to teach them a few things.

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just let it be, there is a different group of gamers now, they are not very interested in
realistic flight. you can only hope a 3rd party dev will come up with an aircraft that can do
all the acrobatics properly.i wonder if maybe the spit can already do better?

Seriously though - I agree you can’t create a six axis simulator to truly give the “Butt feel” of “out of envelope flight”. I don’t think any simmer expects that, but do remember this simple original fact about computers - they crunch data fast. And if the computer ouput is a colour monitor (VR headset, whatever), the whole job of a computer is to move dots of coloured light around the screen dependant upon calculable factors and input from extarnal devices.

There is simply no such thing as “it can’t be done” in a softwear environment. (As for mechanical limitations of six axis sims etc. “not yet”) It just means the programmer is unable to figure out how things work in the real world.

GIGO

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There is indeed a whole new generation of simmers… aka Millenials! :rofl:I’ve already had a few try ramming me when I habd MP active. Very keen on attacking ultralights with A320s and stuff like that.

I actually find some of that amusing, but it does rather put a crimp on your style if you’re on short finals.

Yes, the Spitfire is rather agile in comparison to default aircraft. And the helicopters are also proving to Asobo, that out of envelope can be done. I do see a bright future for msfs in that respect.

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Hi @EagleSkinner

I’ve been with this Sim for a month now. And I couldn’t find anything related to aerobatics. Today I finally found this section acrobatics), but with very few interventions of simers. Well, acrobatics interests few people, that’s why there is little participation in this forum. However I was very happy to find you and verify that you are the one who has had the most extensive interventions.

I am especially interested in the Extra 330, but I have real difficulties to perform correctly the loopings. Of the 2 aerobatics, this is the one that performs this maneuver the worst, especially the looping. I wonder if there are other users who have better performance, are you one of them?

I, in “cursor mode and toolbar panel”, did all the possible combinations to activate/deactivate its tasks, and in spite of everything, I can’t get it to perform the looping fairly well. In the end, I decided to set them all to OFF. Nevertheless, the looping is the most deficient aerobatic maneuver of this plane. Any of the other single engines do it better than the Extra. Am I wrong in my exposition? I ask you this, because in view of your topics in the Forum, I think you know this subject.

Surely you are familiar with the Sim. Aerofly FS 2; there we also have the Extra 330 , and its performance is far superior to this Microsoft one; what they don’t have there as you also know, is the extraordinary Microsoft scenery, and this changes everything.

I await your point of view about my difficulty with this aircraft; thank you very much in advance.
Kind regards: Delfin

It’ll be a while before I am fully back in the sim - the last update cost me a lot of time and effort and in all that messing about, I managed to corrupt my windows installation as well. I’ll take a week or two refixing my computer to optimal before I can even think of reinstalling msfs. By then I hope there’ll be a few real changes.

I’ll be back

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Loops are very easy to perform in the Extra with an entry speed between 100 and 190kts.

If you are experiencing difficulties, you are most likely pulling the stick back too much.

Make sure that you don’t exceed ~4.5G during the initial pull up so you don’t stall the aircraft
(At 100kts ~3Gs is the limit)

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Hi @PZL104

Thanks for your advice, it is very accurate, but I clarify:

1º).- I have extensive experience with flight simulators, practically since the release of Microsoft’s Sim in the 80’s.

2º) - I have the Aerofly FS (now FS 1) since its release; that extra 330, behaved very well in aerobatics with the limitations of all Sims.

3º) - I have since its launch, the Aerofly FS 2, which in addition to an Extra 330 that works very well, and the Pitts S-2B, I have other aerobatics adapted to Aerofly FS 2, such as: Yak-55M and XtremeAir Abach 300. These last two fly even better than Aerofly FS 2’s own Extra 330.

I also have extensive flying experience in real aircraft: Cesna 172 SP, and a wide variety of U.L.M., including two of my own: Coyote 1 and especially the Sakota aerobatic, with 852 hours of flight time quantified in the latter two.

Of course, with all the above, I consider unnecessary to clarify that I know very well how to perform a looping. I mention the looping, because it is the maneuver that this MSFS Extra 330 performs frankly badly, although also very bad, the barrels, augers, etc… Naturally, on my PC. Surely on yours, it performs these maneuvers much better judging by the description you give me in your reply.

However, it performs reasonably well the loopings with the aircraft: Cesna 152, Zlin Savage CUB, Zlin Shock Ultra, etc.

You advise me to start the looping with speeds between 100 and 190 kts. I start this maneuver with speed equal or higher than 140 kts. And this maneuver is executed very badly. If I started it with 100 kts. It would not even get vertical, it has a very fast speed decrease with stall.

Of course, I have OFF. All the piloting assistants.

And now, something much worse (and hard to believe):

(a) - I fly almost always in “ready to fly”.

b) - This MSFS Extra 330 stops the engine very often; I start it and it stops again, every day, it stops almost when I turn it on again.

c) Sometimes it appears on the runway with the engine stopped, I start it, and sometimes I start it but sometimes it doesn’t do it. It is not the only one that stalls the engine, also do it: Cessna 152; Baron G 58, Cesna Citation CJ4, King, and others that are the ones that I usually fly. These two have never stalled: Zlin Savage CUB, and Zlin Shock Ultra,

d) - This is hard to believe : after restarting the engine, it runs with non-uniform rpm; it goes in jerks (accelerates and decelerates with regular time intervals) until it stops again.

e) - and the most difficult yet : While in flight, with the engine rpm (and consequently, its power) failing, all the avionics of the instrument panel are turned off, all the digital displays are turned off, but the engine continues to work, although irregularly.

I look forward to your advice, and of course for me, the strangest thing (even more than those incorrect loopings), are the engine stalls and all those strange irregularities in its operation.

My mother tongue is not English, so I hope the translation is accurate enough, especially with the meaning of the technical jargon, which is where translators make the biggest mistakes. If you find strange words, they would be due to the translation.

Kind regars: Delfin

Are you keeping an eye on the G-meter during the pull up?
The elevator on the Extra is very powerful and you need only a small amount of pull to achive 3Gs at 100kts.

Btw, Aerofly FS2 is IMO one of the most underrated sims.

Hi @PZL104

Yes, you are right : this plane does the looping but with a huge radius, something I had never seen nor experienced. It’s a strange and rare condition ; in “real aviation ?”, …impossible !

Anyway, this is the least of my problems with this Sim, although I have given it some importance because it is a maneuver that I do frequently. Now (and already for a long time), the biggest of my problems (as I have told you in my communication), is the engine stall of almost all airplanes. In addition, they start, but most of the time, they stop again. I have described this to you in some detail, and I am surprised that you do not say something to me regarding this anomaly.

You are a “Tec Alpha Insider”; I assume that you have been a Tec Alpha Insider for a long time and consequently, I assume that you have extensive experience in the configuration of this Sim. I suppose also, that these anomalies that I have, someone else will have commented them in this Forum, I don’t believe that I am the only one; being so, what solution has been given to it?

If I fly in the “ready to fly” mode, what sense does it make in a simulator that the engine stops? I start it and it stops again. Of course, in the real world, this is impossible.

What sense does it make in a sim that after starting, the engine does not work with uniform rpm, that it jerks and does not respond to the acceleration I apply to it? I assume, I repeat, that someone else has reported these strange anomalies to this Forum. Please give me some comment and how to remedy it, otherwise, I can hardly do anything with this MSFS.

I didn’t answer you yesterday because I assumed you would expand on your answer again, since you only mentioned the "ges" I should apply in looping, but nothing about everything else.

Yes you are right: the Aeroflay FS 2, is a superb Sim. and unfortunately very underrated. I don’t know exactly who has given it negative hype. It has magnificent airplanes, which fly very well, and the best aerobatics. What it doesn’t have, is this extraordinary scenery of MSFS. Well, except for MSFS, no one has, or will have in a long time, anything comparable to this Sim. Nobody is willing to spend such an amount of money.

Regards: Delfin

I just compared the Aerofly Extra, the MSFS Extra and the MSFS 152.
I’ve used 120kts entry speed and a 3.5G pull up because these are the recommended values for the 152.

In all three cases the altitude gain was ~500ft, which is what I get IRL as well and I don’t consider this a ‘huge radius’.

I’m not experiencing any of the engine problems you are describing, I’m not having the non-working trim problems etc. etc., hence I can’t comment on these issues.
Maybe because I’m using a completely unmodified MSFS version.

Could you please tell me the path to the folder where the screenshots are stored ?

Thank you: Delfin

I don’t know. I never use this function.