Aerobatic planes with accurate out-of-the-envelope flight model

[SpottedAxis7643]

Hi @PZL104

Back to you again, PZL104, I just sent this post to the Forum, I have already sent others but without reply. I remember that you had been very precise in the explanations you have given me, relating precisely to this Extra 3300LT.

After the SU6, the engine no longer stops, but it has this other anomaly that you can read in the post. Do you have any idea of this difficulty?

The truth is, the plane I use the most, keeps giving me problems. I have never had anything similar to this happen to me with simulators.

Whether I take off from the runway or start the flight at altitude, the engine initially responds perfectly with full throttle = 2,700 rpm, but about half a minute later, it systematically drops to 1,500 rpm: Naturally, this leads to a decrease in power. With full throttle, I repeat, you only get 1,500 rpm. and in these conditions I have to fly. This problem was caused after the SU6. Before this SU6, the engine would stall the engine a huge amount of times, but there was no rpm drop like now. Now the engine does not stall.

If this is not the ideal place to report this anomaly, please let me know exactly where I should report it.

A propósito: aquello que te había preguntado: ¿Dónde se almacenan las capturas de pantalla?. Pues en:

Steam Ver Capturas.

Kind regards: Delfin

[SpottedAxis7643]

[quote=“EagleSkinner, post:13, topic:279203, full:true”]
It’ll be a while before I am fully back in the sim - the last update cost me a lot of time and effort and in all that messing about, I managed to corrupt my windows installation as well. I’ll take a week or two refixing my computer to optimal before I can even think of reinstalling msfs. By then I hope there’ll be a few real changes.

Hi @EagleSkinner

This was the last comment of your post (12/21) addressed to me

And I do not know if you have really returned to the Forum but we have not coincided. For this reason, I insist once again on what we discussed in this topic in which you have participated very actively and extensively.

Well, in this other topic that Follows Virtual world and real world, in acrobatic flight .

I have given some brushstrokes to take into account in its programming and redevelopment. The more members in this Forum we support this claim, one of two:

Or MSFS (Asobo), upgrade this Extra 330 LT, or

A third-party team could start the development of the airplane that all of us who love this sport have been waiting for many years, and I believe that today we have the tools to develop it.

I await your comments.

Kind regards: Delfin

[EagleSkinner]

Oh I am still here and still hoping for decent aerobatics in the sim. There is a simple desire in my mind that someone creates an aerobatic profile for the sim that matches the possibilities shown by Jurgis Kairys, Svetlana Kapenina, Patty Wagstaff, Art Scholl, Sean Tucker and many others.

At the moment there is nothing in the msfs and 3rd party market that can even halfway match, for example… just search Jurgis Kairys in youtube and see any of his performances with the SU31.

As yet I have found no msfs aircraft that can do the cobra takeoff - or vertical flick rolls - or change direction of roll in a vertical climb - or do a loop type rotation literally in the aircraft’s own length - or produce smoke straight out of the exhaust stack - or Lomcovac - or simply do a normal loop of a few hundred feet in diameter - or even do a straight vertical climb within the bounds of the aerobatics “box” (a cube in the air 1000 metres on each edge).

Theoretically the Pitts (sticking with msfs) and the Extra should both be capable of aileron rolling at constant height for the full length of the box at constant altitude. The same for knife edge flight. In a vertical climb I don’t see msfs aircraft manage much more than 4 aileron rolls before stalling. Watch any good Y/T video and you can see many aerobatic aircraft do at least 6 rolls vertically and still have enough energy to flick off the top. I think one of the Kairys videos even shows 8 rolls in a vertical climb - and he changes direction half way up too!

I have had the pleasure of being on the beta for several 3rd party aerobatics aircraft over the years and there were some in FSX that really were good. But so far the msfs devs, both Asobo and 3rd party, don’t seem to be able to maintain inertia in aerobatics moves. Some can do basic stuff like barrel rolls, aileron rolls and loops - but then again, there were WW1 aircraft that handled more crisply.

So yes, I am still dreaming of lomcevoks (however you spell them ) and I am hoping too, that some developer will ask Pam Brooker to work on their flight dynamics.

By the way, even the Reno Air Race aircraft still leave a lot to be desired. Although they are good for the “Fly fast, flow low, turn left” action, try to put a Texan through other manouevers and you still find that these aircraft still suffer decacing inertia that seems to be too unreal.

I will close here by saying that there are some nice aircraft coming. I wonder if gliding will at least produce aerobatic qualities. I have flown Pilatus and Pirat aerobatic gliders IRL, so here’s hoping for a better next year…

[SpottedAxis7643]

Hi @EagerSkinner

What you replied to me, is a …:

"GOOD DESCRIPTION OF WHAT WE HAVE AND TO WHAT WE ASPIRE ”.

The following video scenes serve to break the monotony of the monotony of the necessary demands made by us, especially those of us who like acrobatics, in this forum.

You have mentioned some of the world acrobatic aces such as Jurgis Kairyr, Patty Wagstaff, Svetlana Kapenina, etc. You know this one This one

And, flying in pairs and synchronizing their movements, these other twoThee other one

It is amazing in these videos, the perfection of the movements made by both pilots, to achieve perfect synchronism in their two flight paths. Of course, a huge amount of flight training hours are required to achieve this perfection. In a sim. we can spend as many hours as we want, but the results have nothing to do with reality; the same happens with the emotions experienced by the pilots of both worlds: the real world and the virtual world, taking into account that the performance of the aircraft in the virtual world, (as we all know), are far from those of the aircraft in the real world.

You have not commented on the thread I linked you to “Virtual world and real world, in acrobatic flight” in my previous post. I would like you to do so, but not in this topic, but in the previously mentioned one. I think that’s where we should put down our ideas and suggestions. Please do so.

Do you really believe (as I have commented in my linked topic) that the developers of the current aerobatic airplanes, have counted with the assistance of aerobatic pilots to develop the aerobatic figure routines?

I am convinced that in this Sim. (worldwide) we are thousands of aerobatics lovers, and consequently it can be very profitable for MSFS (Asobo) and also for third party developers, to program a good airplane with correct aerobatic performance (something that so far no one has done). And the many opinions that we bring in the Forum, will be interesting for the developers.

I look forward to your opinions

Regards: Delfin

[GentlestCurve98]

I have no idea at all, but read quietly with …

[Xenonguy]

Aerobatic aircraft have very large rudder surfaces. Even in my Super Decathlon(Real), you are able to do an upright, flat, rudder only turn. The fact that this sim will not allow this to happen makes me not surprised at all that the planes will not hammerhead, spin, or snap correctly. While I’m complaining about bad aerobatic modelling, the sighting device on the extra is in the wrong place. it’s way too far aft. They got it correct on the Pitts. That should be user positionable anyway. I keep hearing about tweaks to the 172 to better model the slipstream while the Extra and Pitts continue to lack realism. I really do enjoy this sim and especially the VR flying, but how about focusing less on scenery and more on the flight model. I have heard that DCS has it close to correct so it must not be impossible.

[EagleSkinner]

We are now in June / July and I still see no good news from msfs on the aerobatics front.

@PZL104, you made some useful comments, thanks, but they don’t really help. It’s not just loops. It’s about the 1K cube (i.e. the aerobatics 100 m cube in space) and what aerobatics fliers get up to in that box.

Multiple rolls along the horizontal axis - msfs manages up to 2 or 3 before speed decay causes the terrain to get angry with you. Flick rolls? The sim just looks at me and says “Do what?”. Vertical rolls/ flick rolls. One maybe. Two - you’re “glass half full”. Multiple? No chance - your glass is empty. There are realworld videos on youtube that show some aircraft (Pitts, Christen Eagle etc.) doing 6 or 7 rolls vertically.

Lomcevoks - Now there’s a complete different kettle of fish! One of the “L” variants is to climbe vertical, chop throttle and when speed nears zero allow the nose to drop forward or backward to the horizontal and the firewalling the throttle. Hi Torque engines will spin the aircraft around the axis literally “on the spot”.

Other planes can flip nose over tail whilst in horizontal flight,

Dear msfs and Asobo, please, pretty please, do some work to improve the out of envelope experience. FSX was loads better than this. Study the various links to real world aerobatic pilots and displays posted in this thread and see just what can be done. Only when msfs reaches that standard can you call yourself the most realistic sim.

Best I can hope for at the moment are diarrhetic rolls and loops, the odd cuban eight, half cubans and sloppy barrel rolls - and that’s about it from the msfs “aresti catalogue”.

I have even done better pseudo loops with Hype’s Airbus H145!

[SpottedAxis7643]

@EagleSkiner , @PZL104

Good afternoon, Chris

My last communication with you was on 18 May 2022, since then you have not even answered me.
I don’t remember the thread I used to send you that communication, if you remember it, please inform me. As I don’t remember it, now I do it from this thread (which I remembered, as it was the first one in which I met you).

By now, (and as an aerobatics lover), I guess you already know the latest release in MSFS, it’s called “XtremeAir Sbach 342”, and as of today I think it’s the best aerobatics in this Sim.

Its developer started very well, very attentive to our suggestions and quickly corrected and improved all the shortcomings we pointed out.

I bought it and downloaded it yesterday; after about half an hour of flying to get a feel for the plane and discover its sensitivity, I made a short video, which I discarded because of several accidents.
As I have NOT yet done any flight hours, I lack skill and knowledge of its sensitivity. I only paid attention, I repeat, to the execution of the aerobatic figures:
Immelman, barrel, looping, Cuban eight, vertical aileron barrel, knife edge, etc. and …cobra.

One observation: the knife edge is really spectacular; he is even able to fly it with the wings perpendicular to the ground and…ascending! with the engine at maximum power. A visual spectacle, it’s the first time I’ve seen this figure in a sim with this perfection.

Microsoft Flight Simulator 1 26 5 0 2022 08 24 19 36 50

The attached video will be more eloquent than my description. Enjoy it
Kind regards: Delfin

[PopDreAMerZ91]

Hello all,

I’m working on my PPL and at the same time took few lessons on cap 10 in order to do aerobatic in the future…
The flight model in this sim improved in nov 2021 but still no enough to train properly.

Does someone know about something regarding Asobo plan for improving aerobatic in the sim ?

Otherwise , do you recommend to train in aero fly fs 2 ? Which seams to have the most realistic physics regarding aerobatic ?

Thanks in advance

[PopDreAMerZ91]

Did you try since the update which improved aerobatic flight model ? Nov 21 guess

[ExplorerJB]

Just bumping this up because it’s really important to me. I’ve been waiting a long time for the aerobatic aircraft in the sim to get a fix so we can do the same maneuvers as the real aircraft. The sim’s been out for so long that I’m worried at this point that it won’t happen any time soon if at all. But why? Aerobatic flying is FUN. Seriously fun. Probably even more so for casual players, so Asobo could certainly reel in more players if they make the aerobatic aircraft more fun to fly. Obviously, aside from the flight models, They really need smoke as well.

Currently the Pitts biplanes and the Extra 330 don’t really have a place in the sim. Not like they should. They feel a bit empty and unfinished. They’re perfectly fine at normal, level flight - but who wants to fly them that way? They can do some basics - loops, aileron rolls, and anything that can combine the two, but that’s about it. Hammerheads are occasionally achievable, more in the Extra than the Pitts, but not in a consistent way. Knife edge works for about a quarter of a second, basically not at all. I feel like it’s such an unfortunate miss. I typically fly bush planes and vintage military but sometimes I just want to do some extreme aerobatics. (Don’t we all?)

[SleazyGem9101]

Give Aerofly FS 4 a try. It has by FAR the best stall and post-stall modeling of any sim I have used. I doubt there will ever be a perfect simulator for this at any price, but it’s hands down the best. Real-world aerobatic pilot here.

[PZL104]

Aerofly for aerobatics was my initial reply 3 years ago already and nothing has (unfortunately) changed.

[PopDreAMerZ91]

The game is magnificent, but how can you not appreciate it even more?
How to perform aerobatic without beeing abble to do proper nice spins, snap rolls, and gyroscopic maneuvers…
Help us appreciate the sim even more by allowing us to get as close as possible to the feeling of flying, or even using the simulator to train and perform aerobatic tricks.
Thanks Asobo for your hardwork and making this great sim, it pushed me to start my PPL and falling in love of this beautiful world which is aviation.

[SleazyGem9101]

MSFS is still so far from reality in this area that I think it would take a complete overhaul to get it right. Clearly it was not intended for post-stall and spin realism. For aerobatics practice nothing beats Aerofly. There is a Polish outfit (Inflight Aerobatics) that sells a turnkey aerobatic VR rig for real aerobatic pilots to train and practice with, that uses Aerofly FS 4 as the sim software. It only costs around $36,000 US.

[VoraciousJet]

Well considering that they can’t even get basic ‘in envelope’ to work
Right on none acrobatic airframes….