Virtual world and real world, in aerobatic flight

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To us, and a few dozen other members of this Sim, who appreciate aerial sensitivity, speed, strength, maneuverability, and… “Ges”, (to make us breathe adrenaline). This comes from a member of this Forum, who asked me that something very irregular happened to him with the Volocopter recently incorporated to this Sim. To debate and speculate with Volocopter, it is not easy because at the moment we do not know it completely. It would be very different if it were a Extra 330 LT, or Sukoi SU-26M that we were debating. A flying machine superior to the current Extra 330 LT, (I speak naturally, virtual reality), then if we would strive to analyze it meticulously. Anyway, I know that it will come to this Sim, what nobody knows, is when, and above all…if a sufficiently good and superior aircraft to the present Extra will be developed. It can only be done by a brave person, or group of brave people, who work for the love of art (for a job well done and with recognition by the lovers of acrobatics), because in that airplane, its programming will have to be very complex.

Here we already have a third party team that has developed a magnificent aircraft:

Team : Top Mach Studio

Aircraft: Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

And that I make known to whom it may concern, that after SU 7, in that F-22 raptor aircraft, all the information displayed on the HUD, has disappeared; now it appears completely empty of information. Please repair this anomaly to whom it may concern.

Returning to the aerobatic issue, programmers will have to work together with professional aerobatic pilots who would provide the programmers with the precise information of what they want to do at each moment of each maneuver; that will take, to modify and modify each routine, each line of code, and so on thousands of times; thousands of hours of work testing each movement of the aircraft after each modification in each line of code. A long work for…how long?

And it is not easy such an effort in exchange for…?. Well, a well done development, (better than anyone has done so far), it is more than reasonable to put a cost on it. I, and I suppose that many more members of this community, would be happy to pay that price for a “virtual aerobatic flight machine” well done, that offers us what we have been waiting for years: an aircraft that performs aerobatic maneuvers well done.

And after all that has been said and exposed in these lines, we would only have a virtual toy that recreates our sight, the only one of our senses that comes into action in front of the monitor, or virtual glasses, but nothing more. The most important thing in this illusion, we will never have it: to feel in our physical body, the acceleration, the “Ges”, the rotations of the airplane in space, the dive, the pitch, the roll, etc. etc. etc. That makes us breathe adrenaline, it is a human emotion I think almost unmatched to any other. And that set of emotions we will never have in this virtual world, no matter how sophisticated the aerobatic plane I am describing. I think I can safely say that the best player in the world, expert in Sim and fond of acrobatics, if he were to enter a real plane with a real pilot, he would have a very bad time in the face of not very aggressive maneuvers. This demonstrates the enormous distance that exists between this virtual world of flight and real flight.

Anyway, this is only a virtual game, and a substitute for those who have never tried real flight, or for others who practice or have practiced it. In any case, if the plane realistically performs these maneuvers mentioned, we will feel very satisfied to have a virtual toy, whose behavior is very similar to the real one. This is even though we will not feel on our body, the mentioned “Ges” among other sensations. Naturally, we will pay this price for a plane that does well.

I recommend to those who play this virtual game with real pleasure, to try the real flight; it will be an extraordinary experience, which you will enjoy enormously, and just for that, it is worth it. Most especially, in aerobatic flight.

Finally, I encourage third parties to play this game; they may be in for a big surprise, it happens very often in life, that what we think does not work, then we get the big surprise and it is a success, especially in sales.

Third parties, we would be satisfied with a well made Sukoi SU-26M. We would not be unhappy with a Sukoi SU-29 either.

NOTE: it comes to my memory that I have in Aerofly FS 2, the aerobatic plane “Xtreme Air Sbach 300”, and I think I have read in some post in this Forum, the name of the author of this plane giving his opinion, I don’t know exactly about what. Does anyone know it?

I can say that it is the plane of all I know virtually, that flies frankly well and does the normal and inverted augers, better than any other. I’m sure Google is going to mistranslate this “auger” name. I think it is called “Spin” in English. In short, it is a vertical descent but in spiral and with the engine at idle and joystick completely back. The inverted auger, exactly the same, but with joystick completely forward.

If you browse this Forum, couldn’t you adapt that formidable plane “Xtreme Air Sbach 300”, to fly in MSFS 2020 ?.

Well, fellow Forum members, nothing more in this topic for the moment.

Kind regards : Delfin

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Hi Delfin,

Sorry… I have been away from my computer for a while (bad health) but I did see your comments in my thread. Time to respond now:

Aerofly FS2? Nope, sorry - never used it so I can’t comment. There were, however, a few very responsive planes (and mods) in FSX that really worked a LOT better than msfs can yet manage. Auger? What a very good translation - even if “Spin” is the correct term. An auger is a large wood drill and/or one of these huge drills for making holes in the ground. Standard spins and flat spins (i.e. head up) were quite good in some of the specialist aerobatic planes in FSX. I think I did have a modification the the Patty Wagstaff Extra (FSX default) that really set a great standard and was so far in advance of the default MS aircraft as day from night. There were also a few good 3rd party aircraft too - Iris’ Christen Eagle, ATS Pitts, a Sukhoi 26 (Payware but I don’t remember the maker). Those were all better than FSX default and far far better than anything msfs can do.

I am hoping that A2A might do something with accusim for msfs, but they are very quiet about what they are up to. Their FSX Accusim models were the best, although as with all simulated flight you do not get any motion feel.

In MSFS there are a couple of notable models - the two helicopters (Flyinside’s Bell 47 and Hype’s H145) are definitely aerobatics capable. The Bell 47 can do some really good manouevrs as flown by the British Army Blue Eagles helicopter team and If you ever saw Charlie Zimmermann tooling round the trees in his BO105 (search Youtube, you can’t miss him) then you will like the H145. It’s a bit heavier that the BO105 but relly can do the things you love to do most in a helicopter.

I have worked with a third party model maker for msfs, but he finds the msfs flight modelling to be relly awkward to build on. Working with gliders is also refreshing - some of the msfs freeware gliders are very responsive and can provide good aerobatics. I did train to achieve real world aerobatic abilities in Pilatus, Pirat and Blanik gliders - the freeware msfs devs have done some really good work there.

Strangely enough, the Reno Race Texans have improved my hopes for aerobatics in msfs. Still much to be desired, but it is, after all, a heavy trainer. If you do fly a Reno Texan in msfs, then you really need to try to fly with a VR headset - I use Oculus Quest 2. The Texan is quite fun.

But in a final analysis we will still need to wait for the msfs flight model developers to get a working aerobatic flight model and to provide the data hooks to allow 3rd party devs to really show what can be done.

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Thank you EagleSkinner, for your answer.

I was considerably surprised by the video (acrobatics on helicopter) of charly Zimmerman. I had seen more than 20 years ago on TV. A hilicopter doing an aileron roll, but …all those complex acrobatic maneuvers that this guy performs? Including the “barrena” (Spin ), that is really serious and I guess dangerous. I suppose that this helicopter has been reinforced, but…reinforced to do those maneuvers, hard to imagine the double effort that the helicopter blades have had to endure in those maneuvers, and…how much training time to achieve that mastery? Is some minority group trying to turn the helicopter into another machine for aerobatics?

Helicopters are not my weakness, but I am a lover of aerobatics and, I think that even if they managed to turn that machine into something seriously aerobatic, it is not going to provide the thrill that the airplane unquestionably provides. That agility, speed and maneuverability in the maneuvers, would never be achieved by a helicopter, and that is a fundamental part of today’s aerobatics. However, I can also understand that helicopter lovers like the acrobatics with these machines despite their limitations; it would be another type of acrobatics.

But… I wouldn’t be surprised if it has its followers. There is nothing more daring than flying men with fabric wings supported at the ends by their arms and legs. In short: crazy things for all tastes!!!. look at this which I guess you also know.

You mentioned in your first answer to famous pilots, this link that I sent you in my previous post, corresponds to Cástor Fantoba, with multiple awards that you can see the end of the video, among them, European champion in 2.014.

Cástor Fantoba

TOPIC: Virtual reality glasses.

I don’t know how it looks in MSFS. From the comments I have read, it seems that they still have to improve the system. It seems that the resolution or sharpness, looks much worse than in 2 D (on the monitor).

In Aerofly FS 2, there has been a lot of discussion about this issue, because it seems that according to very serious opinions issued by members of the IPACs Forum (creators of Aerofly), only the vision in the Aerofly FS 2 game, was frankly good. However, some have said that it made them tired, others dizzy and others, that they were sorry and now had the glasses abandoned in the attic of the house because the resolution was not good. Well, this happened during the first 2 years at Aerofly. Now, especially with the HP Reverb G-2, it seems that the vision and resolution is very good (better than with any of the other VR goggles).

How do you see with yours. I guess with worse definition than in 2D (on the monitor). (Do they produce or have they produced any kind of discomfort or dizziness as a consequence of the resolution?

And… as you said, we will continue to wait to see what they offer us related to acrobatics, and that should be quite superior to what is present in this Sim.

Well, EagleSkinner, have a nice weekend.

Kind regards: Delfin

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The Oculus headsets do indeed have low resolutions compared to my three monitors desk and I suppose I could be happier if I used TrackIR. The worst thing with VR for me is the lack of getting screenshots on the fly or recording decent video. On the other hand, flying in a VR headset close to the ground does improve the “Feel” for aerobatics and “Charly Zimmer” madness. As for disorientation, well I am lucky as I never have problems in VR flight. Some of the VR RPG games do unbalance me a bit - Oblivion and Skyrim for example, although I would like to try Assassins Creed and Tomb Raider in VR one day.

My helicopter aerobatics experience was given to me by a UK Army Blue Eagles pilot (Barney Southgate) - he showed me what he did when display flying a Bell 47. Yes, aerobatics in a helicopter is a lot more dangerous in real life, but the advantage of flight sim is you can turn off collisions. I do frequently fly in VR with collision on too, because even though the view is lower res, you can see obstacles very quickly and avoid them.

You mustn’t forget that there are several different forms of aerobatics to get used to: Team Formations, solo and race modes. And each aircraft category is different too - helis, gliders, piston engine props, vintage and modern aircraft, even jets.

I think the biggest issues that msfs has have to do with conservation of momentum and power/energy management. This is where the 3rd party glider and helicopter makers have much better success because the teams really know their stuff. The msfs team has to produce many different flight models and the dont seem to manage full mastery yet. They seem to be OK with big tubes and trainer aircraft, but not the more agile planes.

Ah well, perhaps with practise…
I recall making some liveries for an FSX aerobatics team who flew Extra 300s. They practise for many hours as a team and were very good in formation manouevers. Practise, practise, practise and more practise.

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Hi, @EagleSkinner; but I would like more, to ask you with a greeting like : - “hi …your real name”. This other thing sounds very strange to me.

To begin with, I had got it into my head that you were North American, and it turns out that you are closer to me (Spain), and you are in Great Britain, aren’t you? Well, nice to meet you. . . . ?

Yes, in the acrobatics game, you would be happier with the trackIR, as it would allow you a wider (and very accurate) tracking of the view that is very often out of our visual angle. That will be the first purchase I’m going to make; the second will be VR goggles.

And going back to VR, doesn’t it allow you to take screenshots on the fly, nor does it allow you to take normal videos ? That’s something I didn’t know, what is the difficulty in making those two screenshots.

I wanted to tell you about this chronic anomaly that I have been suffering almost since I bought this Sim.
Two days ago, I found myself again (and for the umpteenth time), with engine stalls. I had been since the last update with a normal operation. This anomaly, consists of engine stalls (now of all propeller planes, and a good part of the jets, including third party, such as the F-22 Raptor, the Eurofight Typhoon that had never crashed, etc.).

If I have not made any manipulation or configuration in any of the aircraft, how is it that being working properly, the next day almost all malfunction and engine stalls all in the same way.

I am convinced that it is due to manipulations due to the improvements introduced by Asobo in the sim. to repair anomalies produced in its last update, and that have as a consequence these side effects in some users. Do you agree with my prognosis.

If you want to see and read, My thread where I explain in more detail exactly how these engine stalls occur, and you will also see that there are other users with identical problems to those I suffer. Have you never had this problem?

And… we will continue waiting for someone to develop a good aerobatic airplane, meanwhile, we will have to continue suffering with this Extra 330.

Kind regards: Delfin

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