Can somebody explain how to fly this approach chart

This is the runway 14 GPS of Indianapolis Airport.

There is a waypoint YEAAR which is 2 Nm from the Runway.

For an ILS landing, I think normally you would try to intercept the localizer farther out at around or before KEADY which is at 11 Nm from Runway ( although the signal could show up as early as 18 Nm from the runway). Then the glideslope will be intercepted at the FAF at RSADE.

The A320 neo flight plan loads waypoints all the way to YEAAR and the autopilot will make the altitude adjustments all the way to that point in Managed Mode which leads me to think this is how the chart is normally flown. However, it seems to me that YEAAR which is about 2 Nm from the runway is too late to hit the APPR button. I think maybe I should hit the APPR button much earlier, maybe closer to KEADY like on a a normal ILS approach.

Am I supposed to allow the autopilot to take me to YEAAR and then engage the APPR or should I interrupt the autopilot and change to approach before YEAAR?

How should you fly this approach on a Cessna manually without use of autopilot?

How should you fly this approach on an A320neo with use of the autopilot?

Thanks

In real life, arm approach as soon as you have received approach clearance, and you have identified the ILS. Usually when on a vector to intercept the final approach course. No need to wait.

This applies in a Cessna or an airliner.

If you want to fly this manually in any aircraft, just tune the ILS freq and fly the raw data LOC and GS indications.

How about if you are using a GPS approach? So I don’t tune into an ILS radio. At some point, I have to transition to APPR while the autopilot is performing vertical and lateral navigation using GPS. Do I arm APPR at about the same distance that I would have armed it for an ILS approach?

I would like to know those answers as well. But note: that plate is for the RNAV approach only, not ILS.

YEAAR is what is known as a step down fix. Mainly to keep aircraft clear of that 944 ft tower that is depicted just inside of YEAAR. It may or may not be in all FMS databases. Keep in mind that this approach can be flown in aircraft that aren’t VNAV capable, so this step down fix limits you from descending below 1480’ until passing certain obstacles.

So that’s the long answer to say, arm approach a few miles prior to the Final Approach Fix (RSADE). In fact, if it is all set up with VNAV altitudes, you could arm approach at 40,000’ and hundreds of miles away from the airport. (Sim may not handle this correctly, not sure). But normally this is done when ATC says cleared for the approach, and a few miles outside of the final approach fix.

Since this is a GPS based approach, no need to tune in a ground based ILS frequency. All done in magenta needles with APR and VNAV. Normally you will get a magenta “Glidepath” indicator to follow down to the minimums listed next to LPV (instead of a green glide slope that you would follow down on an ILS).

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Not an Airbus pilot, so I’m not sure…but,

Generally speaking, you’ll arm an approach once cleared for the approach. In the case of the Sim, you can arm the approach before JELLS, KEADY, or RSADE. You can even intercept the final approach course in heading and arm the approach (again, not an Airbus pilot so I don’t know how their approach system logic works). Point being, arm approach before the FAF (final approach fix). As JuiceBox said:

All that means is if you are flying the LPV approach (GPS equivalent of an ILS) or the LNAV/VNAV (pretty much the same as an LPV with less stringent requirements and generally higher minimums), YEAAR doesn’t matter. YEAAR only matters to the LNAV and Circling approaches. If you’re flying the approach with a glidepath displayed, then you’re flying the LPV or LNAV/VNAV approach. If you’re not, then you’ll want to use YEAAR to make sure not to descent to your minimums without crossing YEAAR at or above 1,480msl.

The thing that determines which approach you’re flying, is the minimums you’ve decided to fly to before starting the approach. Excuse me if you know this already – the minimums are at the bottom of the approach plate. In the case of the one you provided the minimums are:

LPV 996’ MSL with a minimum reported runway visibility of 2400 feet (1/2 statute mile)
LNAV/VNAV 1092’ MSL with a minimum reported runway visibility of 2400 feet (1/2 statute mile)
LNAV 1200’ MSL with a minimum reported runway visibility of 2400 feet (1/2 statute mile)
CIRCLING 1420’ MSL with a minimum visibility of 1 statute mile

You’ll set up the approach and press the same buttons regardless as to whether or not you’re using an autopilot. The only difference is you’re hand flying as opposed to the autopilot doing the work.

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An RNAV approach and a GPS approach are the same thing :slight_smile: No need to tune any radios since they’re already tuned from the satellites. Rule of thumb is to arm the approach before you get to the FAF (Final Approach Fix). Personally I arm an approach within 20 miles of the airport, but no later than the FAF. I keep it the same for any approach, ILS, LOC, VOR, RNAV. Consistency :wink:

Also remember, the mode used for flying RNAV approaches differs between aircraft, and the avionics installed. In a 777, they’re flown in LNAV & VNAV. In aircraft with IAN (intergrated approach navigation) mode such as some 737ng’s and the 747-8, APR mode is used. I’d guess its APR mode for the 787 too, but I’m not certain.

No idea about Airbus, sorry.

So LPV is GPS approach for WAAS equipped aircrafts, LNAV/VNAV approaches use barometer for vertical guidance. Both types of approaches will not be hampered by the radio range limitation of ILS. With LPV, since the data used to construct the glide path is from the satellite, then it seems technically possible to intercept a glide path even at 40,000 feet. You would have to be at least 120 Nm away though with heading of the runway. I don’t know that such level of precision could be achieved with barometric measurements for LNAV/VNAV. The plane will not know actual pressures forward its path and below but that data could be received from other sources or perhaps interpolated.

So are LPV and LNAV/VNAV types of approaches designed to mimic the ILS counterpart? What I mean is that while they can be armed as high as 40,000 feet, they can only be ACTIVE in the last 20 Nm distance from the runway? What is the maximum distance they will be activated?

In a standard ILS approach using the autopilot, you generally have the autopilot managing HEADING and ALTITUDE HOLD while you arm the APPR. When connected with localizer, the HEADING is disengaged and when connected with the glideslope, the ALTITUDE HOLD is disengaged.

If you are arriving at the airport using GPS and Autopilot managing SPEED, HEADING and ALTITUDE which is what the A320neo does, at what point does the autopilot logic ( or is it even capable of making this decision, since I notice that it is quite happily proceeding to YEAAR at DES speed of 250 which is a lot of speed to lose to get to 120 in the APPROACH phase) know when it is supposed to switch from DES mode to FINAL APPROACH? What flight parameters is it looking at (speed, rate of descent, altitude, distance from runway)? I don’t know the difference between ARMING and ACTIVATING the APPROACH in this case because there should not be any range limitation like ILS where you ARM the APPR and wait for it to be ACTIVE.

Or is this transition always going to have to be managed by the pilot ( will always have to be manually activated and if it is immediately active, then it is not technically arming it) ? I am trying to understand how to fly this plane with the least amount of pilot intervention.

With regards to structures at or around YEAAR, I suppose what that means is I should not try to intercept the glideslope at 1000 feet altitude before I reach YEAAR or I might get a nasty surprise if I was flying manually. If I stick to the rule of making the FAF the last possible point to intercept the glideslope, then I shoudn’t worry about any structures.

With regard to activating an approach. You fly what you filed for of what ATC has cleared you for. We never activate an approach without 1) ATC clearing us for the approach, and 2) having the aircraft established on a published portion of the approach. This includes published feeder routes for the approach. Without these 2 things you have no guarantee of terrain or obstruction clearance.

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Been trying to land this plane this morning but failing.

My basic procedure:

  1. Take off with throttle at MAN TOGA
  2. Engage the autopilot and autothrust
  3. Disengage flaps
  4. Set throttle to THR CLB (There is a flash on the anunciator which I think means I need to put it on this setting. I read somewhere that it is supposed to stay at this setting throught the flight and all the way to landing. )
  5. On JELLIS, contact ATC. They actually give me directions to follow the flight plan with appropriate altitudes at appropriate waypoints and speed recommendations.
  6. Turn on APPR. The PFD shows FINAL and LOC in blue so they are armed.
  7. The plane follows all the waypoints and reduces speed appropriately and I engage the flaps as the speed decreases and put the landing gear down before RSADE (FAF).

I am at the appropriate altitude (2400) and at the appropriate speed ( 140 ). Then I go right past RSADE without intercepting and following the glide path. The FINAL and LOC anunciation remain in blue and not activated. Can’t figure this out.

The approach starts at the IAF (Initial Approach Fix) at an altitude of 4000ft MSL or higher.

Well I am convinced there is no way to land this automatically via GPS glidepath. I tried selected mode speed and altitude and managed mode speed and altitude. I tried arming the approach on multiple waypoints. I tried with Autothrottle on and off. The FINAL LOC mode just wouldn’t engage. Maybe a bug or something I am doing wrong.

I tried ILS approach on another runway and it works perfectly in Managed Mode for Speed and Altitude ( and of course Lateral Navigation) and once you have the ILS radio in front of you alive with a bearing and distance, you can arm APPR at any waypoint. I did shutdown autothrottle before landing by moving the thrust lever to IDLE. Didn’t verify if the ATHR light was off on the autopilot panel though.

If anybody is successful in landing this runway using a glidepath, let me know how you did it?

Thanks

in the A320, maybe try the approach with APPR active, but don’t press the LS buttons.

How about staying in managed descent mode for the entire approach?

LOC mode will definitely not engage for this approach. There is no localiser to capture. That is correct, not a bug.

I don’t fly Airbus, but in a 777 any non ILS approach is usually flown in LNAV & VNAV (or maybe VS) for the entire approach.

Do you try to autoland the airbus until touchdown? Isn’t the autoland only possible with a CAT III ILS approach?

Slightly off topic, It’s actually possible to auto land from any ILS. It doesn’t have to be a CAT II or III. You are restricted to CAT I minima, and the crew will have to be ready to disconnect and continue manually at any time, as things such as backup transmitters may not be operational, and the ILS signal will not be protected from interference from ground vehicles and aircraft.

I did try staying in managed mode for the whole flight. However, sometimes I am too low, sometimes too high on the approach. I’ve been fiddling with a bunch of stuff though. I am wondering if the timing of my flaps deployment affects the accuracy of the landing.

Do I have to wait for the F speed before deploying Flaps 1 or does me deploying Flaps 1 cause the speed to reduce to F?

I think I read somewhere that flaps 1 and flaps 2 should be deployed before the final waypoint and then flaps 3 and 4 after.

I remember flying GPS approach with a magenta glidepath. Is that perhaps only on LPV approaches? I see a rectangle on the glide slope display instead of a diamond and the plane does not adjust itself to align it center vertically.

The MCDU Perf page on Approach has LDG CONF at CONF3* and at the bottom it says FULL. Do I have to have Flaps3 or Flaps 4 on Approach?

At the YEAAR waypoint, if I allow managed mode to get me there, there is only 2 nautical miles and 700 feet above ground to make changes. Too fast to turn knobs and activate buttons on the AP. I think what I need to do is go manual at this point and turn off AP and ATHR. I am not sure how to land it though. Without lateral navigation assistance, I tend to veer left and right and I tend to over correct. If I keep the AP active, should I switch to Selected Heading and Selected Speed? I think it will try to keep the last Heading and last Speed that was used in Managed mode. I need to have some vertical control to hit the runway at the proper spot.

Would it be similar to a situation where the plane is trimmed for speed and increasing throttle will pitch the plane up to maintain speed and vice versa therefore varying the vertical descent speed? I am not sure really because the Auto Thrust might need to be active to hold Speed in Managed mode (Moving the thrust lever will only change the maximum power available to auto thrust) . In which case, I won’t have thrust control but I probably could pitch the plane up or down and maybe the auto thrust will adjust to maintain speed but I would have some vertical control. There is also the possibility that my attempt to manually fly the plane will disable the AP altogether. Then if auto thrust is still active and I hit stall speed, then Alpha Floor protection kicks in and puts the throttle in TOGA and I float away from the runway.

What strategies would you recommend after YEAAR for vertical control all the way to the runway?

How would this landing be done in real life?

What flaps settings and when?

Do big planes like the A320neo just avoid runways like this? It would be easy to land this on a Cessna even manually flying.

Thanks

The real A320 flies these approaches in F-G/S and F-LOC AP/FD modes, I haven’t looked at the MSFS version to see if it has these.

So across the top of the PFD you would see:
SPEED…F-G/S…F-LOC (all green)…F-APP (white)

Here is an article by Airbus Non-Precision Approaches

If I remember correctly, it shows this after pressing APPR:

SPEED | ALT | NAV | ( green )
(blank) | FINAL | LOC | (blue)

And there is no localizer so can’t expect LOC to engage.

I have not come up with any method that makes a repeatable scenario. I over or undershoot the runway or land on the right spot.