CDI mirrored on both RMIs

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no

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yes

Which aircraft are you reporting an issue about? (Please also add the proper tag for it)

Boeing B 307 Stratoliner

Brief description of the issue:

Course deviation indicator on both RMIs is mirrored left/right

Provide Screenshot(s)/video(s) of the issue encountered:

https://youtu.be/k4-_G4-YFCk

Detailed steps to reproduce the issue encountered:

In flight, tune a VOR frequency and a radial. Observing the RMI you will see that the CDI is left of the center when it schould be right of it and vice versa.

PC specs and/or peripheral set up if relevant:

n/a

Build Version # when you first started experiencing this issue:

1.33.8.0


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Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

Pics would be very helpful, for starters.

In the interest of getting us on the same page, a CDI (course deviation indicator) doesn’t exist on a radio magnetic indicator (RMI). A CDI exists on a VOR gauge or an HSI (can also be displayed in several electronic methods) and shows the angular deviation right or left of the selected radial.

In contrast, an RMI shows magnetic bearing to (and from) the station, as well as relative bearing. But a specific course/radial is not selectable, just observable in a different manner than with a CDI.

So if your CDI is showing the wrong deflection, I first assume it’s on a VOR or HSI and my question would be which radial is selected and where are you relative to the station. My guess is you are encountering reverse-sensing, in which you may be trying to navigate TO the station, but have selected a radial on the same side of the station you are on, which should normally be selected if you intend to fly away from the station with a FROM indication. Or vice-versa.

Or you’ve encountered a bug. Without pics, it’s hard to diagnose.

I referenced the vertical lines on the following instruments:

named as this:

in the manual.

Maybe you can recheck my findings?

Okay, I know it’s the manual and all, but those are VOR gauges, not RMI. For reference, this is an RMI:

image

With that out of the way, unless there truly is a bug, the most likely culprit is what I partially explained before - you’re reverse-sensing.

Start with the premise that at any single moment, a VOR gauge doesn’t “care” where your nose is pointed. The indication is 100% dependent on the aircraft position relative to the selected course. Heading is irrelevant to that instantaneous indication, but will play into how the indication changes and trends as the aircraft moves.

When you select a course using the omni bearing selector (OBS) knob, you are choosing one of 360 radials emanating from the VOR station. The course deviation indicator (CDI) needle will then indicate whether you are left or right of that selected course. The catch, as I briefly mentioned earlier is you have to pay attention to the TO/FROM flag, which is also dependent on aircraft position and selected course.

Let say you’ve tuned the HGO VOR and have selected the 360 radial. The indications on your VOR gauge will primarily be divided into four quadrants, as shown here:

The CDI will indicate left of course (“fly right”) or right of course (“fly left”) depending on which side of the green line you are on. The TO/FROM flag will indicate based on which side of the blue line you are on (which is perpendicular to the selected course). There’s some ambiguity involved in real-world ops around that blue line, but we’re going to ignore it for the sake of this discussion.

So let’s say we’re to the southwest of the station. Selecting a 360 course clearly puts the plane in the quadrant that gives a “TO, fly RIGHT” indication (needle deflected to the right), meaning we are notionally left of that course. Remember heading has no impact of that indication in that moment - we can be pointed in any direction and we still get the same indication. But here’s where heading does come back into play:

If our plane is in that TO/fly RIGHT quadrant of the 360 course selection (so, again, southwest of the station), and the nose is pointed north, following that fly RIGHT indication will eventually cause the deviation to decrease and the needle will eventually center as we cross the selected course (green line). So we turn to the right, fly northeast and everything is good, the needle eventually centers and we resume a northerly heading and overfly the station.

However, let’s say we’re in the same position, same course selection (360), but instead the nose is pointed south. Remember, the CDI doesn’t care which way the aircraft is heading, only the position matters in a given moment. So even though we’re flying south, it’s still giving us a TO/fly RIGHT indication. So now we turn right, to the southwest, to intercept, but as we continue, the needle indicates further and further to the right, as if the deviation is increasing. What gives? We turned right like it showed, but we’re getting farther from the course?!

What’s happened here is we have selected a radial on the opposite side of the station, which should be done if the intent is to fly TO the station, but we’re flying away, FROM, and the indications are reversed, trending away over time. This is known as reverse-sensing.

If we wanted to properly track that same course over the ground, while heading southbound (away) from the station, the correct thing to do would be to select a course that gives you a FROM indication, 180° in this case, which in that same southwestern quadrant would give you a “fly left” indication. This 180 course selection makes the quadrants look like this:

So if we turn left from a south heading, maybe toward the southeast, the CDI needle will eventually center and we’ve successfully navigated the course!

Note that if we’re in the same southwestern quadrant and we turned the OBS around to a course selection of 180°, we now have a FROM/fly LEFT indication as stated in the last example. If we flip the script again and are flying northbound and intend to intercept the course to the station, with a 180 selection, we will again be reverse-sensing (flying left as prompted will diverge the needle). In this case, we should select the 360° radial and get a proper TO/fly RIGHT indication.

This explanation would work much better with a real-time visual aid, but hopefully that clears it up a bit. There are several nav trainer apps out there that allow you to play with selection, position, and trending based on heading/track. There’s also a great web-based app here: luizmonteiro - Online Simulators - VOR Simulator

Have fun!

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There’s another user who mentioned this bug.

Interesting. Well, I’ll have to try it when I get back to my computer in a few days. With all the people that love VOR navigation, especially in a classic airliner, I’m surprised there aren’t a ton more reports.

I added a video to my bug report.

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

I tested at KPRB parking spot 4. I tested with the DC-6B and the B307. Both tuned to PRB 114.30. I see the course deviation line to the left of center when the CDI is set to a 75 degree radial on the DC-6B, but to the right of center on both CDIs in the B307.

Also, the index mark (caret) on the CDIs is missing.

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

DC-6B:

B307:

I think the problem here is that the OBS in the DC-6 is set to 75, the one in the B 307 to ~ 69. Set it to 75 and you have the CDI on the right side.

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You’re right. I really struggle to read the scales on every gauge on the 307. They are horrible.

Let me re-test and I’ll fix my post, if need be.

EDIT: updated my previous post to reflect that I also see the issue.

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Yes, it’s sometines difficult to read. I use an external display for the OBS values.

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Ok, in the DC-6 you are on the 250 radial (as indicated by the RMI), and have a 075 course selected. This puts you in the TO/fly left quadrant, like this:

On your heading of 205°, that will give you a diverging indication as you continue to fly straight OR make a marginal turn to the left. This is reverse-sensing. You should select the 255 radial to achieve that same course over the ground, flying away from the station, but with correct sensing. Or if you intend to fly to the station, leave the OBS where it is, but do a 180° and fly northwest to regain the course.

So in the case of the DC-6 it seems to be operating correctly.

With the 307, if you are indeed in the same position, it is indeed indicating backwards, giving a TO/fly right indication with the 075 radial selected (in the corrected pic), despite the aircraft being in the fly left sector.

However, please clarify something - is the RMI above the VOR 1 gauge correct? If not, then we can take your word for the position and the observation foots. However, if that is indicating your position relative to the station, then there are a lot more problems afoot. Or maybe that’s simply a moveable-card ADF?

Otherwise, congrats, y’all found a bug!

I don’t understand what that is doing. When adjusting the OBS of the CDI, its card rotates, so it is not functioning as an RMI. It seems like it is behaving like an ADF.

EDIT: The manual describes it as a “NAV1 Radial Indicator” and it also labels the CDIs as RMIs…

Hmm, I haven’t seen one of these, but perhaps it’s a moveable card relative bearing indicator (RBI), kind of like an ADF, but useable with the VOR. But also lacks the automatic heading synchronization of the RMI.

But if that’s the case, having it move in sync with the OBS of the VOR gauge is actually dangerous. It should be set to aircraft heading, not the course, if that’s what it is.

Given the growing volume of bugs with this aircraft, I wouldn’t read too much into it.

It’s probably borked.

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Just wanted to include you both in my reply. I can’t download the manual (getting an error) but I think I understand what the gauges are.

There are four gauges overhead on the left side of the 307. The bottom two are VORs, with CDIs, the top right is an ADF and the top left is like an ADF for a VOR - it always points at the VOR. Maybe that is called an RMI, going by what you have mentioned.

Anyhow, if I dial a VOR into NAV1 and fly due North (0 degrees) on the 180 radial towards the VOR, the line on the CDI of VOR1 is centered and the TO flag is highlighted.

If I now fly to the right of the 180 radial, the CDI should start to move to the left, indicating that I am to the right of my desired course. However, the CDI moves to the right also. That is a bug afaik.

@CharlieFox00 You know a lot more than I do. Do I have that interpretation correct?

An RMI doesn’t have a card that rotates with the turning of the associated CDI’s OBS knob. It has a card that is synced to the gyro compass and turns with the heading of the aircraft.

That “ADF for a VOR” has a card that turns when you turn the OBS knob on the CDI. What I haven’t worked out is if the heading it ends up pointing to has any bearing (haha pun) on what direction you’d actually need to fly to get to the VOR. Without having spent any time analyzing it, but just sitting here thinking, it wouldn’t seem to make sense that it change the bearing one would need to fly towards to arrive at the VOR.

EDIT: Ok, I loaded up the aircraft at KPRB parking spot 4 and tuned NAV1 to PRB 114.30. I rotated the OBS to get the CDI pointing on a radial that I’d need to fly TO PRB. That radial is ~70 degrees. The “ADF for a VOR” (by the way, I’m putting that in quotes not to have a go at you, but because I like the name you’ve given it) is now pointing at ~30 degrees. Well, that makes no sense, becuase to fly TO the VOR you’d need to be on a course of 70 degrees. Therefore, I’m not really sure what that instrument is trying to tell us. For it to have any value, it needs to have its card synched to the gyro compass and not be something the pilot can rotate.

If you scroll up to my post that has the image of the DC-6B, you can clearly see how the RMI is pointing at 70 degrees, because that is the heading you’d need to fly TO the VOR. The “ADF for a VOR” is, well, useless.

No worries, haha. I just don’t know enough to give it an actual name. I just tried to give it a meaningful description.

To get to your EDIT… will it pick up a signal on the ground? Whenever I use VORs in the sim, the gauge only picks up a signal in the air, no matter how close they are to the VOR. And similar to how an ADF points at 90 degrees when it has no signal, would that RMI (or whatever it is really called) also point at some default direction when it doesn’t have a signal?

Any time you have a moving-card bearing indicator, it’s your choice whether to use it as a fixed card or as intended with the moving card. If it’s used as a fixed card, you usually set it to 0° and just look at the relative bearing left or right and do the math:

Magnetic heading + relative bearing = magnetic bearing. Or MH + RB = MB

As an example, if we’re flying an MH of 080 and the RB to the station is 20° to the right (arrow is pointing to 020 on the fixed card which is set to 0), then our MB is 100° to the station and 280° from the station, if we use the reciprocal.

With a moving card, you simply align the heading at the top of the card to your current heading and read which heading the pointers are indicating right off the card. It simply eliminates the math. An RMI does this last part automatically, that’s the big difference.

What’s new to me here is that I’ve heard of an RBI outside of baseball, but I’ve never seen one used for VOR in real or sim life (I’ve only seen them used for NDB). That’s what this instrument seems to be - the lack of the magnetic heading synchronization turns it from a radio magnetic indicator to a relative bearing indicator. So use the card or don’t, your call, but ya better be good at interpreting it.

Now, as far as I know, the movable card RBI has NOTHING to do with course selection. An RMI/RBI always points to the station (errors notwithstanding) and there is no course selection or deviation indicator involved, ever. The card only allows for the reduction of calculation necessary to find that relative bearing.

Every aircraft I own, that has a NAV, can pick up both PRB 114.30 and MQO 112.40 when I am parked at KPRB.