Community feedback towards developers

You have to remember that Asobo has inherited this code from other developers. This isn’t a house that they built and have been living in since forever. This is a dark cave they’re doing their best to explore. But there are people in this community that have been exploring said cave for decades, which is why we get responses like the one you highlight.

As someone whose job it is to work on an enormous code base i can tell you that it’s pretty much a given that Asobo doesn’t have complete knowledge of the codebase (although i don’t know for how long they’ve been working on FS2020). But that doesn’t excuse them from accepting a helping hand from people who do have that knowledge and who know the root cause of bugs that Asobo haven’t even run into yet.

No one here is trying to bash Asobo. We’re all trying to help, each in whatever way we can.

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Is it not the job of the CM to collate / filter / understand and then present the issues to the developers in a cohesive fashion? I see too many questions on the Q&A that seemingly get confused and a different question seems to get answered as opposed to that of the intended original. This in turn gets met with “Awesome” and they move on. Morphing Mountains question ironically morphed itself into coastlines as a perfect example.

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Two problems with that, in my opinion:

  1. The CM needs to have time to go through each and every issue
  2. The CM needs to have the technical know-how to not only deeply understand the issue and the solutions proposed, but also to select the minimum necessary information for understanding the issue and the solutions, if any. Because how can you explain a problem in a short, concise manner if you don’t understand it yourself.

It’s obvious that a single person cannot have enough time to track as many topics as are being posted on this forum. And frankly, if someone has so much technical expertise that they can do the job, they belong in development, not in customer relations.

As i see it, the Community Manager should manage, not do the legwork.

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That’s the “Art of Deflection” – politicians are notoriously good at this – so are Business Executives.

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For the record:
I believe you would have to go a long way to find a better MSFS Community Manager than Jayne. @Jummivana

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I agree. Like i’ve been saying: this isn’t to bash anyone at Asobo or Microsoft. I believe they are very dedicated and are doing a great job. This is about opening up communication channels with some very knowledgeable people in the community in order to make things better for everyone.

Edit: And to clarify, because i think this is where the sore point is, i misspoke when i said “do the job”. I should have been clearer. I was talking about the task of collating the information available on the forums in order to produce a comprehensive report for the devs, not about the job of Community Manager.

I could not agree with you more, but sometimes asking for help appears to some as a sign of weakness, and a sign of your inability to do the job assigned to you – especially in some cultures.

This is indeed very unfortunate, because a small amount of the advise of experts, is worth so much more than a confusing mass of irrelevant advise from those that are not so informed.

Well, they reached out to WorkingTitle. I am ignorant of the details of that, but it did happen. They are also reaching out to AIG, so hopefully that works out. I am an optimist on this, so i’ll take those as signs that they are open to receiving a helping hand.

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Yes, finally open to receiving help and a “helping hand” , as anyone would be , in the immediate point of actually drowning.

But asking for, and receiving help is one thing - but at the end of the day, it is what you listen to and act on that counts.
(we all know where I am going with this, so no need to spell it out again)

That’s one of the “Realities” of the current situation !!

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Let’s not forget that while a number of users do write detailed posts with concerns they have, many of those also editorialize along with the info given by adding in value judgments and assumptions about the programmer’s ability or intentions, some rather rudely and dismissive. When that happens, you get this string of posts of people jumping on the condemnation bandwagon.

So, imagine yourself as the Asobo staff reading those comments. Human nature when you sense your integrity or abilities are being questioned is to not necessarily put tons of effort into making all those people happy but instead to get defensive. Often I believe that’s where the informational stuff likely gets lost.

My suggestion, if you truly believe you have an issue you actually believe there’s a fix for, is to state the issue clearly, make suggestions based on research you may have done, PRAISE THE STUFF THE PROGRAMMERS GOT RIGHT, and stay far away from those assumptions that someone is ignoring you or basing their priorities on profit, or are marginal in their programming abilities.

There’s a major difference IT staff members have in reaction to a comment comes in that says “you’re doing it all wrong. ABC software has that feature working well and so should you…” and “I don’t know if you’ve noticed in all your other work but palm trees in this location show up as lumps in the terrain instead of as a tree. Perhaps that type of foliage is not expected in this area and with millions of square miles you’ve overlooked this. I would hope this can be addressed.” The first comment is confrontational. The second simply states an issue that can be further investigated with some information to help track it down.

And when you post a respectful issue and 5 people jump on that issue bandwagon with condemnation, then try to dial them back and bring the discussion back down to Earth.

And news for you. Even if you do everything right in how you put in an issue, the importance you place on that fix, may end up way down the priority list the Asobo staff is facing. They are looking at big picture based on input from thousands of users, resources they have available to them, corporate pressure and contractual obligations. For any of you that have ever worked in a software production environment, all of this stuff should sound very familiar to you. Customers often send in requests that to them sound simple and quick and once you get into the code and QA processes, the work takes far longer to implement.

Bottom line to this is have patience and respect. The sim we have today just a few decades ago would have only been available to massive governmental or industry simulators and cost incredible amounts of money. Technology in our world has exploded in our lifetime and frankly we’re all a bit spoiled by it all. Programmers want to be challenged and most I know are their own strongest critics continually pushing the envelope. They want suggestions but like any other human don’t respond well to bullying and derision.

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Let’s not forget that when you do post a highly informational post, it’s often cluttered after it by a hundred non-informational ones, many of those derisive towards the very programming staff you are trying to help. Unfortunately, if one is skimming through the posts, it’s far easier to read those ones that are short, to the point, and in my mind mostly worthless drivel. I’d advise everyone with an interest in technology to visit a forum I go to daily - UnmannedSpaceflight dot com which is strongly regulated in that posts like yours would be welcomed with open arms while all the drivel would be stopped quickly and those users blocked. It covers all the unmanned space missions going on and prides itself on staying grounded in the science. As a consequence some of the posters to it are the very people that work and manage the missions. They don’t have time to wade through the dross that shows up in poorly moderated forums.

This one pretends to be strongly moderated by blocking curse words and political talk but some of the stuff that gets by just raises your eyebrows in terms of whining and disrespectful posts towards Asobo.

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There’s a voting system in place. It is blindingly obvious when there is a major bug because hundreds of people vote and comment on it. There’s no need for the community to waste yet more time preparing slides etc.

What we need is for Asobo to engage with the community. Get them in this forum talking with us. No need to spend hours per day, just small regular updates on what they are doing in relation to reported bugs.

At the moment all we get is complete radio silence. It’s not clear whether that is because they are working hard on the bug, or becuase they are not working on at all. I suspect the latter.

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I watched the Q&A and to me it seemed like Asobo did not understand the question at all and the question went unanswered.
Seb was totally confused about what Jayne was talking about and after a laugh they went on with the next question.

I mean it’s not like it’s a new issue. And it’s not like ATIS was something you could say is a minor issue.
It basically breaks the whole game if you try to go for realism without using Vatsim etc.

Fully agree with this thread, there is a quite basic gap between the community’s efforts to find and describe issues and what Asobo is actually making of it.
Especially the highly voted bugs (not talking about wishlist) should be on their high prio issues list that is discussed in every sprint planning meeting.
And Microsoft should ensure that Asobo is actually taking the feedback and following up on it without being, again, surprised about it on the next Q&A.

This is why I am really looking forward to first Technical Q & A

While I have a multitude of Technical Question that I would like to ask the Development team, I would be more than happy to be silenced, and just view questions being asked by Established and Recognized 3rd part Developers.

So many of them need the Opportunity to have some direct Communication with the Technical Devs at Asobo, to get basic fundamental issues discussed and hopefully resolved.

Good for them, will end up being good for everyone.

And while I greatly admire Jayne as a Community Manager, and all she does in that role, maybe the person asking these Technical questions should be a technical person from some of the 3rd party Developers , who can make sure that answers are adequate and relevant to the question - and not just some technical deflection.

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Most of the 3rd party developers are as much in the dark as the rest of the community. Communication is the issue in both ways. Users, testers and the 3rd party developers use every single tool Asobo made available to convey messages, suggestions, reports . But it seems like most of those are either lost in the process, or ignored.

The Asobo side of communication often feels scripted a long time ago with a few ‘We hear you’ additions. The whole charade seems like managing publicity while they push long decided and planned features, rather than improving the product together with the community.

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That is very true. Which is why i think it’s better to have someone go over the post and pick out the actual information and leave out all the useless comments and present that to the devs, rather then telling them: “here’s a thread with 1200 messages in it, go read it”.

Secondly, i have seen such threads which mostly contain very useful information with very little chatter on the side. A very good example is this thread, where these mad lads found a problem, tested various scenarios, and finally found the root cause:
https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/poi-very-late-rendering-draw-pop-in-solution-for-asobo-to-fix-in-this-thread/368281
But it doesn’t seem like that thread was picked up by the devs. Maybe they haven’t got to it yet. Maybe they thought there’s nothing useful in it. Or maybe they did pick it up and just haven’t told us about it. Who knows? All i know is that rather than sitting here wondering exactly why the devs or the CM haven’t reacted to that thread, i’d much rather try my best to improve communication. Maybe it’s the right thing to do, maybe it’s wrong of me to try. But that’s the good thing about communication: if i’m wrong, you lot can tell me as such :slight_smile:

Again, very true. Which is why it would be helpful to have someone comb out all the chaff.

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Even so, I’m only pointing out that this might be an effect of the top not knowing about everything that’s going on the floor more than a true image of what is being worked on. I don’t know…

I think what is needed is a full-time Asobo counterpart to Jayne, a “Community Technical Liaison” who can ensure our questions get good answers without taking up critical leadership time.

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That is certainly an Idea that I might agree with, if I had the Full Picture of what was going on … but I don’t.

I actually agree with you, but it is often easy to sit on the Outside, suggesting what others SHOULD do, but without the insight that those making the decisions have.

Both Microsoft & Asobo have experienced professional, and they did not get where they are today by making too many incorrect business decisions.

I will therefore just trust that they all know how to do their jobs (far better than I think I could), and see what the outcome is.

At the end of the day, all things considered, and in perspective, “its only a computer game”, and like so many before, is here today, and gone tomorrow.

ie A few year ago, so many were so concerned about what was happening with MS Flight. Today, who cares ??

There should be, and are, far more important things to be concerned about, unless maybe your job & lively hood is tied up with the product.

I do agree with this. And i would be doing just that if there would be no obvious (to me, at least) breakdown in communication. I think we’ve seen on multiple occasions how the descriptions of issues given by devs during Q&As didn’t match the description given by the community. For example, we all have had issues with violent yawing on the ground right before take off, as well as uncontrollable yawing at landing. But when i see the devs talking about addressing that issue, i see them talking about rudder tuning in flight. The night lighting issue is another one, where the community is pointing out some issues with close up lights, and the devs are focusing on long range lighting.

Now, it might be that i’m misunderstanding things. It might be that the devs do know what we’re talking about, and they’re working on it, but they found some other issue in the meantime that’s connected and are talking about that instead. But it might also be that the discussions we’re having here don’t make it to the devs, for one reason or another.
Like i said above, i’m not assuming bad intentions. I haven’t seen anything from anyone at Asobo or Microsoft to indicate than anyone there has bad intentions. I saw what i consider to be an issue and i’m doing what little i can to help things get better.

I disagree. FSX is still used today, 14 years after release. Had P3D not come along, it will be used by a lot more people. The community that existed before FS2020 came out is very dedicated and are used to using the same software for years, even decades. Because for them it’s not about the graphics, it’s about the realism. Sure, a lot of people playing right now will walk away in a few years, but not everyone.

Well, it’s my time, and this is what i choose to do with it :slight_smile: