The 172 is at best half tuned for crosswinds currently, in it’s default state anything stronger than a stiff breeze and you’re going to have problems.
This has become incredibly hard in light aircraft since SU10 dropped, I can’t remember it being this bad during the beta. The slightest crosswind and it’s full rudder, that ain’t right.
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Thanks, this is a really helpful explanation. I’m not so clued up on technical term so can I just clarify a few things?
So the reason the plane wasn’t moved around in my example above prior to starting the engine, was probably becase the wind forces occured when I lifted the handbrake, and that is therefore accurate? That does make sense.
When you say there is a larger surface area to the aft, do you mean the back of the plane with the tail? is that what the stabliser is, the tail with the shark fin? Apologies for my lack of technical knowledge, MSFS is the only flight sim I’ve ever played and I’ve never even sat in a real GA plane.
When you say the nose will get turned into wind. I think I understand. So if the wind is blowing from the left to the right as I’m travelling down the runway, the wind will turn my plane from the tail end, so I will now be turning into the wind with it blowing directly over the front of the plane?
If so that is totally counter intuitive to what I thought was happening, which is the wind was blowing across the runway from left to right that I’d be blown to the right.
If you can confirm I’ve got the above right it does at least give me something to build on, as my intuition of how the wind was blowing me and in what direction seems to be have completely wrong.
If the wind was blowing left to right across the runway, what way do I turn the yoke for aileron correction do I steer right to resist turning left or steer left into the wind?
You got it all right.
The weathervane effect can seem counter-intuitive. You counter it by using the rudder and with rudder trim also (depending on the aircraft type). But as you apply rudder that has the effect of rolling the wings too, so you need to counter that with aileron. The wind itself will create a rolling effect as it will create differential lift on each wing - this is especially pronounced on a high-wing aircraft like the 172.
Now here is the thing - as soon as you lift off these forces will change. Now you will drift in the direction of the wind and if you want to maintain the extended center-line you will have to quickly but smoothly reverse control inputs.
Flying a light GA aircraft in strong winds is challenging and many of them have real limits on how much cross wind they can operate in . So don’t expect smooth take off and landings if you have a 30knt cross wind!
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Agree 100%, this is well said. That’s a good idea with your license in your avatar, I should do the same.
The gust frequency is an issue, ground friction is an issue, twitchy ground control is an issue, but the biggest killer of immersion is the EXTREME exaggerated Weathervane effect. Fixing this needs to be their 1st priority in order to be called a simulator.
I marvel at the job they’ve done with the global rendering and weather, it is truly a huge evolution. But let’s get the very basic fundamentals of flight down now.
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I’ve read every post in the thread, and I agree that the ground handling part of the sim needs some serious work (among others). Dropping a line to say thanks for persisting with this for months, and to the others for keeping the thread active!
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since the su10 i’ve observed that many small propeller planes like the c172 or arrow feel like they are made of paper in crosswinds, sometimes below 10 knots. Sorry for the expression but I can’t think of any other description. Even in the SU10 beta, the aircraft were significantly easier to fly under the same conditions. I’m not flying with an Xbox controller on the Xbox SX. I put together a small cockpit and I can definitely say that there is something terribly wrong with the ground physics
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The only thing that changed after SU10 is the new silly turbulence/gust system that is very annoying especially in live weather. This added to the wrong ground physics made crosswind landing way more difficult than in real life.
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Had a similar experience yesterday (C172 G1000). Did some patterns in live weather and according to the windsock, I had a mild crosswind component of some knots (I also checked this with simvar-watcher). But on the ground during takeoff and landing, it felt like a ten times bigger crosswind. While ground physics always had its peculiarities, I did not encounter such a strange behavior in light winds before…
Edit: I read this in another thread about ground handling (https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/is-there-something-going-on-with-wind-or-runway-friction). Will try this out…
Solution: I enabled legacy flight model and restarted the sim. Then I changed back to modern and restarted the sim. Voila!
Edit2: Tried this out, did not change the behavior.
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yup this whole gusts has been very annoying, wish it could be disabled in live weather.
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Just checked the new development update. The ground handling problems introduced specifically in SU10 didn’t make the report list for new bugs reported in the last three months which is why I was annoyed that the thread Merkuel posted up a couple weeks ago got merged with one from over a year ago.
Hopefully they are reading the forums at least as there’s no Q & A until November so live weather probably a no go in the 172 for the rest of the year.
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For Xbox users yes, for PC users you can just go to the flight_model.cfg and delete the lines
ground_crosswind_effect_max_speed = -1000
ground_crosswind_effect_zero_speed = -1000
and it will return to it’s exact pre SU-10 state.
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Really, as easy as that? I though they added some complex new weather physics, not two lines of code? I will try it tomorrow and be mightily pleased if that works!
They played with wind gusts some more in SU10, but the main source of the 172 crosswind issues are those 2 lines of code.
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To be a bit more on spot they fixed two issues on SU10:
- Gust was completely cut as soon as an aircraft sat on its wheels (which was ever since the case in every iteration of Microsofts Flight Simulator!)
- The lines mentioned above are there to tune the behavior - if you remove them everything will be FSX again (gusts not affecting behavior on ground)
- There are even more lines to control ground behavior like wheel friction. Asobo added these just on the C172 as their testbed to collect feedback and to try it so clearly it needs some tuning
Instead of removing the lines just make lower the values, especially may speed. Go with 100 or 10 maybe and see if it improves the situation for you.
PS: Linking the beta phase thread about gusts and crosswind would make some sense I think, so here it is:
https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/anyone-tested-if-the-awful-crosswind-physics-is-changed/530363/148?u=delta2k5
Is there a universal flight_model file, or are you referring to the flight model file for each aircraft?
THanks
For each aircraft, though to my knowledge the 172 G1000 variants are the only Asobo aircraft to include the new lines.
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Chiming in late, but yes, the weathervaning effect is overpronounced on tricycle-gear aircraft in the sim. Whereas weathervaning will have quite an effect on a taildragger due to the large surface area behind the main wheel pivot point, a tricycle resists that due to nosewheel friction as well as less surface area behind the mains, which are usually farther aft than those of a tailwheel aircraft. Yes, the weathervaning moment is still there, but should be far less than simulated.
Additionally, as airspeed increases during takeoff roll, the relative wind gets to be more and more on the nose in proportion to the crosswind and the weathervaning effect decreases.
In my RL flying, I’ve never had to use left rudder to maintain centerline with a right crosswind. Ever. I’ve maybe had to use a little less right rudder (and requisite crosswind aileron deflection) and that’s about it.
Now, as you lift off and lose the friction, it will weathervane toward the wind a bit (maybe a degree or two) because going from a crosswind takeoff roll to airborne is in effect, introducing a sideslip - and weathervaning is part and parcel of sideslip dynamics (why do you think an airplane’s nose turns in a bank?). After becoming airborne, it will stabilize (while beginning to drift downwind) as it adjusts to the new relative wind and becomes part of the surrounding airstream, provided you remain coordinated.
But again, the big difference between airborne weathervaning and that incurred on the surface is the friction and pivot points of the aircraft wheels.
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came to find a thread discussing this. the rudder/nosewheel authority on the ground with any sort of crosswind is terrible. i have to twist my stick 75% of the way before it has much of any action, and then it over reacts and pulls really hard. IRL you don’t need that much pedal to keep you on centerline unless you have a massive xwind. the way it is in MSFS right now has me swerving down the runway like a drunk person
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My workaround is to not fly in cross winds higher than 3 knots. So little real time weather for me which reduces the immersion level a lot unfortunately, but I’m tired of the dire fight not to crash every touch down.
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