I think there are two issues here, and one is masking the other.
True differential braking is where a brake button is pressed and the adjustment of the rudder determines how much brake is applied to each wheel.
Many simmers will be using hardware which allows left brake and right brake to be separated. Left pedal left brake, right pedal right brake, no matter what the rudder position is. This is NOT differential braking in the sense referred to previously.
The new lines appear to restrict is to the former and have actually removed the left and right brake effect, which is unfortunate as many aircraft have a defined turning circle witb just NWS and a further defined turning circle with NWS and braking applied on that side. Some have a NWS angle for NWS alone, but a greater angle when the brake is also applied on one side.
Given the issues with clarity in the SDK from the start, I think differentiating between differential braking and left/right braking is necessary, and that it is the latter which really seems affected.
I’m pretty sure this is wrong? Differential braking is when one side’s brake is activated and the other is not (or to a lesser degree), causing the aircraft to tend to turn towards the side with more braking. This doesn’t involve the rudder pedals, which control the rudder and (sometimes) the nosewheel or tailwheel, but just the toebrakes.
My brakes in the sim are each on their own axis. I don’t use a button for braking. My rudder pedals have three axes: rudder/NGS, left brake and right brake. All of those axes are proportional (i.e. not just on/off).
This matches how it works in the real C172. Each pedal has its own master cylinder that actuates the caliper on the brake disk attached to that side’s main gear wheel. To stop straight ahead, you have to press both pedals. If you only press one, the aircraft will turn towards the side you’re pressing. Using the brakes independently, together with rudder (and optionally also up elevator and throttle) is normal practice when maneuvering on the ground.
Look at how the brakes on a Spitfire work, as probably the most obvious example - there is a lever on the spade grip. That applies the brakes; if the rudder is centred, even brake application will go to both wheels. If the rudder is offset at all, the amount of braking applied to each wheel will be modulated so that there is a different proportion of the braking pressure applied to each wheel and the amount will depend on the position of the rudder pedals, and therefore it allows graduated control of turning an aircraft in one direction or another using the brakes. That is differential braking, and was used on many aircraft such as the English Electric Lightning!
What you are describing, where one side is activated and the other is not, is independant braking as seen on (for example) the English Electric Canberra, where you have separate toe brakes for each side.
Both have a similar effect, I would suggest that independant braking superceded differential braking but that both are often (incorrectly) referred to as differential. Our hardware as simmers is clearly independant braking, as commented by LFKJP - an axis for each independant brake, each axis being proportional. That is what has been affected by the update, I am in work at the moment so unable to check but the way to check if differential braking has also been affected or if it still works would be to press the keyboard assignment for ‘brakes’ and then while holding that offset the rudder axis only.
Personally I’d say that anytime you have independent control of braking to each wheel you have differential braking regardless of the way it’s implemented. Differential just means difference between two amounts.
And I would say that that is exactly how most people see it. Realistically, the effect is the same so why give it a different name?
The only reason I am being so pedantic over it is that here we have an issue with MSFS since the latest update.
Differential and Independant braking are dealt with separately in the aircraft files.
They are treated as different systems and if Asobo fix ‘their’ differential braking then what everybody else is describing as differential braking and I have described as independant braking, which is definitely broken currently, will not get fixed.
Ooh, I didn’t realize there was a technical difference there and some planes actually do have that other specific config, and that it might make a difference to how they’re simulated. I learned something today!
But with the new ground friction lines in the flight_model.cfg either one on their own will brake you in a straight line, which is incorrect - they should turn you. THAT is the point!
Then i guess that on button program to the pedal that taxiing to the right i can also assign right brake to it and when taxiing to the left assign the leftbrake with it.
If you bothered to read my further posts, you would see that I specifically related it to real-world aircraft. I then went on to explain the differences between Differential Braking (in the aircraft, generally a lever and the rudder bar to modulate - there is a differential in the amount of brake applied) and independent braking (left / right pedals each working individually on the side they apply to - each side is either applying brake at some proportion or it isn’t).
The main point was to try and clarify the difference between two braking types which are similar but not the same, with reference to the game - look at the title of the thread. There is an issue caused by the new ground stability lines and it affects the left / right brake behaviour as well as the differential, but if Asobo only try and fix differential brakes the problem will not be solved. They are not the same in the game.
If you are so adamant that I am wrong, go and research how a Spitfire, Hawker Hurricane, English Electric Lightning braking system works and then contrast it to a BAe Hawk or English Electric Canberra. The latter two are pretty much identical to most FS hardware in operation for those people that have rudder pedals. If you are controlling it by the keyboard, it’ll probably be more like the first three examples.
As you ‘ask’, Full piloting realism on pretty much everything: all assistances off, turbulence realistic. Setup is Fulcrum yoke, Warthog stick (with extender tube) and throttle, Saitek rudder pedals. My sim seat is a Martin Baker Mk3 KS2. If it helps, I haven’t been P1 for just over 20 years, but I often try and convey things based on what I currently look at. I develop flight models, so this is very relevant to my work and I am keen to ensure that flippant, unresearched comments do not derail the importance of the topic: the difference between the two types in the game must be seen and understood as the game sees the two types completely seperately and the problem of the thread title occurs with both. Therefore, both will need to be addressed by Asobo, not just ‘differential braking’.
Well, it seems so far only 3 Asobo aircraft are using this New Ground Handling options, and probably less that 4 3PDev have tried to use it on any of their released planes, so, for the time being, its not a widespread issue or disaster.
While you are right its not a major issue, its a basic handling feature fully missing, so its quite important that this works if they want to implement new systems. Make sure the basics dont break first..
100% – agree— if new features are added, they SHOULD work correctly — it really needs a complete design re-evaluation, rather than adding random FUDGE factors to try to change it.
It’s only not a major issue if one doesn’t fly the affected planes. Adding supposedly better ground handling but taking away the ability to properly maneuver the aircraft on the ground as a result is kinda… odd. I really hope they fix this before SU15 is released. It’ll be embarrassing for them if it isn’t.
I can’t speak to the beta, but in a real 172 you do need to use toe brakes when making a tight turn, especially at slow speeds (or when just starting moving). The bungee system that connects the pedals to the torque tube of the nosewheel strut is only really sufficient for maintaining centerline and gentle turns at taxi or runway exit speeds (with a small bit of aerodynamic help from the rudder itself).
But if I want to make a 90° turn out of a parking spot, or getting in and out of runup position, turns from a stop or slow roll, even making a turn onto the taxiway at the end of the runway, I’m on one toe brake until the rate/radius of turn I want is established (meaning the nosewheel has castered correctly) and then I can let up a bit and just use normal pedals. You have to hold the toe brake moreso the slower you’re going.
Exactly – IF you using a PC, you can comment out the new 5 “ground_new_Contact” entries in the "Flight_model.cfg " (say for the Asobo C172 G1000), and that will revert you back to how it was before Asobo introduced these questionable new parameters in SU15 beta.
OR if you can’t do that, you can compare the ground handling of the C172 G1000 (in su15 beta), with the C172 Classic (Deluxe or premium), and see the difference.
This is one time when Asobo not updating the Premium/Deluxe planes, ( or giving them any TLC, despite simmer having paid a PREMIUM Price up front to get them , and supporting MSFS when it was released, ) is actually a BENEFIT !!
The strange , falling over video switch 1/2 way through was me switching to Drone View, by mistake, instead of External View. The Video was NOT edited, so such mistakes are shown !!
