Extra 330 LT / Pitts - still bad roll responsibility

This is something still happening after the current fix.

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/bug-feedback-extra-330lt-pitts-special-s2s-aileron-roll-responsiveness-sloppy/104906

The roll acceleration is still much to slow to start and stop rolls. If I initialize full deflection, roll for 360 degree and neutralize the stick, the plane stops after additional 180 degree of roll. Unusable for serious aerobatics. And the bug was solved in the database? No, it is not.

In addition, flick rolls go absolutely crazy. Even if I tighten the rolls open and initiate much too much drag. Also, if I am reaching inverted the flick suddenly stops without change of control input. This behaviour has nothing to do with reality.

I really would like to use MSFS for flying competition aerobatics. Especially if VR comes into the game. But in this state it is not really useable.

Oh, and by the way, both planes do not have a parking break. They get bound to the ground by robes, if necessary. :wink:

Anybody better experiances? I will write a bug report at the weekend.

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I’ve seen real life aerobatic pilots comment on this as well. Personally I don’t have any aerobatics experience, so I cannot really comment on this, but I trust what the aerobatic pilots are saying.

I’m pretty disappointed by these FMs. I have the “modern” flight model enabled and with either airplane I notice the following:

  • very sluggish roll with A LOT of inertia (tried different joystick curves but to no avail). The real planes are very sharp in comparison.

  • Rudder behavior is very strange, like a rubber-band when deflectign and going back to center.

  • Impossible to perfrom tumble rolls

  • Don’t seem to exhibit any torque-roll abilities. This is definitely possible in the real 330 and S-2.

  • Tried to enter flat spins but for the life of me I could’t, let alone inverted flat spins.

  • Snap rolls: can’t get either aircraft to do any sort of snap roll

Overall I was looking fwd to these aerobatic planes but I completely can’t relate to their flight behavior in the sim (I’ve flown both types IRL).

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I concur with everything in this post - couldn’t have said it better myself. I can’t imagine any RL Pitts pilot claiming that the current Pitts FM is “realistic”.

Anyone is aware of any mod like the many ones we already have? (A320, B787, B747, VL-3, G36, etc…)

Completely agree with all of the above made observations .
I’ve been (trying) to tweak a lot on the cfg’s to get out a better response on the E330 with some improvement but it seems impossible to change the roll acceleration to what it should be on this kind of plane.
There seems to be just a scalar that states: controls_reactivity_scalar = 10 ; Make surfaces 10x more reactive on this plane because we can roll up to 10x faster than with regular planes…

There is more to it then then only one scalar Asobo :wink:

I agree with all of the above. The sluggish roll response has to be fixed. It works correctly in X-Plane and Aerofly. This can’t be that hard… I don’t expect snap rolls to be perfect (although, again, Aerofly does them pretty good), they are much more complex aerodynamically, but simple aileron rolls must at least be stoppable on point, or how am I supposed to do 4-point rolls?
In the Q & A you said you had aerobatic pilots in the testing team - if they fly Extra or Xtreme or anything similar in real life, they will know how unrealistic this feels.

And after the last patch no change at all.

Are you guys emptying the wing tanks?

Sorry, good Idea but not the solution. Yes, I emptied the wing tanks from the Extra. (And by the way, the Pitts does not have one.)

I fired up FS2020 for the first time last night. I was excited to use both the Pitts and the Extra. Having 8 years of real IAC competition experience, I wanted to see how close MS got to the real thing. Well, not close at all. Wow, you guys are are right, the roll characteristics are way off. The Pitts will stop rolling on a dime. Super sensitive. The 2 planes are almost unflyable the way they are, at least as far as aerobatics goes. Another thing I noticed when trying to spin the Pitts was that it would not develop. It would spin and stop and spin and stop without moving the controls. Not realistic at all, again. If it won’t spin correctly, how can anyone expect it to snap correctly. After 1 night of playing around, I’m sure I don’t have my controllers set 100%. However, these problems stick out like a sore thumb. I hope someone at MS is working on these things.

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Hello Xenonguy. At the moment Asobo/Microsoft is not working on Extra 330 LT flight envelope, but I am. Please check my Extra 330 LT X model on http://www.andreadrian.de/FS_2020_sailplanes/index.html and tell me what you like or dislike. Just download the tiny zip-file, install as documented and select the Extra. After correct installation, the Extra has the name “Extra 330LT X” in FS2020.

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PaulFalke, I tried your Extra fix. It’s still not right. It seems that roll is sluggish now. It doesn’t respond to the control inputs correctly. Here is a better video of Patty Wagstaff doing various maneuvers. You can see how crisp all the starts and stops are.https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=patty+wagstaff+extra&&view=detail&mid=42081671F74C6AF6156A42081671F74C6AF6156A&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dpatty%2Bwagstaff%2Bextra%26FORM%3DHDRSC3 I appreciate you taking the time to try to fix this. This sim has a long way to go before it’s really useable.

PaulFalke, Thank you for your mod. Built in Extra 330 LT has some problem. When I push right rudder it should make right yaw and right roll, but it makes right yaw and LEFT roll. I put it to Zenddesk sine last update #5. But, Asobo have not fixed it. So, Could you chek if the problem can be fixed?

Hello ssy523, the “yaw right, roll left” bug is in stock 330LT and in my 330LT X version 1.2. I have fixed it in 330LT X version 1.3. The parameter wing_dihedral was 0.7. I changed it to 2.8. This is a good example for the dependencies of the parameters. And yes, wing_dihedral was not the first parameter I checked, it was number 7 or so. Wing_dihedral makes the airplane stable, but you don’t want to have a too stable aerobatics airplane. Download the new 330LT X from http://www.andreadrian.de/FS_2020_sailplanes/index.html

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PaulFalke, Thank you very much. I tested your planes yesterday. And, I really like them. I found the opposite direction roll on Extra 330LT have been fixed and other physics have been improved. I appreciate your effort. Thank you again.

Thank you! But now we have FS2020 version 1.11.6.0 and I have to tune again. The old flight model mod is no longer working fine, and the new stock model is not great either …
I made a new flight model mod. See version 1.11.6.0 at http://www.andreadrian.de/FS_2020_sailplanes/index.html

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The roll accelleration and decelleration seems to be system immanent. It is not only bad for the Extra and Pitts but also for the Cap 10. This makes no fun at all. :frowning:

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Please test the flight model mod version 1.11.6.0. I need feedback to tune it to realistic. I am surprised how much is in FS2020. And, yes, the Asobo/Microsoft flight models are awful!

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You can’t tune it to a realistic flightmodel for aerobatic planes as the underlying systems prevent you from doing so. (this was already a problem in fsx and still a problem in MSFS 2020)

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