Glider, sailplane, soaring, please! [Feature Requests]

Some new official glider footage from gamescom 2022:
Microsoft Flight Simulator - Xbox Booth Game Overview | gamescom 2022 - around 12:37 - tow footage, 15:55 - guy running holding wing during glider start.

And also more detailed In HD in new trailer Microsoft Flight Simulator - Official 40th Anniversary Update Trailer | gamescom 2022

Some details we can see:

  1. Guy holding wing tip during take off - nice attention to detail
  2. Cockpit view - prob. Ls8-18 neo - we can see working yaw string
  3. Hardly visible, but you can spot tow rope in glider takeoff scene
  4. Some kind electronic vario somewhat similiar in look to LX
  5. Some kind fantasy nav computer (with circular screen)
  6. In the longer plane tow scene that there are some gusts/turbulence shaking glider - good doesn’t look flying on rails
  7. subtle wing flex
2 Likes

short Tow plane + visulisation tool showcase

I’m glad they have a yaw string now and the animation is also looking pretty good, they had me worried when they first showed gliders without it a few weeks ago :sweat_smile:

Also they checked ‘‘what airports are glider save, in the entire world’’ ?
What could that mean? We can select glider friendly airports on the map ?

1 Like

having programmed the flight models in the AS33, LS4 and K7 I should comment on the “adverse yaw” issue:

Asobo have 100% done their job and added parameters to the flight_model.cfg so we CAN model adverse yaw in any plane (aileron_up_drag_coef, aileron_down_drag_coef). This was missing at first but Asobo heard us and added it, before that it was impossible in MSFS to implement adverse yaw but this was fixed earlier this year.

For the AS33/LS4/K7 I have programmed a SMALL amount of adverse yaw so it’s there, but not much.

My reasoning to design with reduced adverse yaw is three-fold:

(1) I think most sim glider pilots do NOT have rudder pedals, and most commonly rely on twisting the stick to operate the rudder. As a RL glider pilot myself I find the stick-twist seriously unrealistic.

(2) Again as an experienced glider pilot, pushing on the rudder pedals during turns has become completely automatic to me so it doesn’t crop up as something I notice at the time or feel missing in the sim where my feet are doing nothing anyway. A friend of mine in the US (also an experienced glider pilot) recently completely independently made this point to me, which I didn’t expect, as it’s something of a niche design decision in sims.

(3) Unless I do some serious programming (i.e. re-implement the adverse yaw with my own code) I can’t make the adverse yaw optional within the plane. The flight_model.cfg parameters are understandably one-size-fits-all for all users of that plane in the sim. However this custom coding is the main idea I have on the back-burner for later upgrades.

So those are the awkward design decisions in the K7, LS4, AS33 - some adverse yaw but not as much as it should be so pilots can easily manage without twisting the stick on every turn. Of course I’d like everyone to have the behaviour they want, but in this case the ‘real’ adverse yaw slightly conflicts with the ‘unreal’ controls action so we’re compromised either way.

In the meantime, if you are passionate about getting more or less ‘adverse yaw’ into any MSFS glider, it’s a simple edit to the relative values of those two ‘drag_coef’ parameters in the flight_model.cfg.

Any great ideas let me know.

B21

1 Like

I’m using the unrealistic twist stick, but I would still prefer to have the adverse jaw set to realistic as possible.

I would buy some rudder pedals, but because adverse yaw (also on other planes) is set to arcade mode, there is no reason to buy them.

It’s like flying with an helping assitent turned on , which imo takes the fun away and makes stuff boring.

More realism = more fun, even for casual players

Hmmm food for thought. As a pedal user I have to ask if there’s anything that can be changed in a Cfg file and if so can you recommend any settings?

Couldn’t an alternative config file be provided in the download, at least then PC users with pedals could benefit?

Otherwise, a duplicate install for the glider with and without adverse yaw similar to how some developers have provided different navigation installs could be an option which then also allows Xbox users to join in.

If left to individuals to manually edit the config file, then at least a recommendation of appropriate values to use would be helpful.

You could publish the mods as two differently named models in the sim.
ie. one named “AS33 me” and one named “AS33 me Pro” with more realistic handling.

I’d certainly appreciate this :+1:

On the other hand, the sim offers the “Auto Rudder” assists for people that don’t have pedals.
I have never tried it, but isn’t that supposed to help with doing coordinated turns?

3 Likes

and even the ‘‘twist stick’’ is not the most realistic one, it’s still fairly precise to use.
There is really no reason to not go full realism with the adverse yaw.

The best solution would be if Asobo made an ‘adverse yaw assistent’ option, so there would be no need for different versions of the airplane or the need to generally reduce this feature for beginners.

For the AS33, the defined settings are in the file:

SimObjects\Airplanes\AS 33 18m Aircraft\flight_model.cfg

at the following lines (line #348):

; aileron_up_drag_coef = 0.5 ; Default is 0.5 - these defaults seem to work pretty well.
; aileron_down_drag_coef = 1 ; Default is 1

The leading ‘;’ on both lines makes them both comments (i.e. ignored) so the defaults are used of 0.5 UP and 1.0 DOWN. If you uncomment those lines they should work exactly the same as the current values are the same as the defaults. Increasing the difference between those 0.5 and 1.0 values will increase the adverse yaw, but you have to test the aircraft very carefully to ensure you haven’t otherwise messed the flightmodel up, particularly in turns. E.g. I’d expect 0.4 and 1.1 to increase the adverse yaw without problems, but at some point increasing the down aileron drag is going to make the plane fly strangely in turns.

Unless you are very familiar with the SDK, do not rely on your change in the flightmodel.cfg file appearing the sim until a complete restart of the sim. Just changing the plane to another, and swapping it back, does not ensure the flightmodel.cfg gets reloaded.

If you get something you think is great, just publish your two numbers here.

2 Likes

Thanks I shal respect your words. And as long as I can hammerhead turn I’m sure I’ll be fine

Please, please - for your own clear conscience do not reduce adverse yaw and it’s effects! This is super important to student pilots safety.
If possible err rather on the side of signalling all pilot errors.

More and more people try to use sims like Condor and MSFS before starting gliding in RL or as an additional tool in their basic training.
Whether they should do it and how is another topic, but no matter what we think about it they’ll just do it.
Without adverse yaw and it’s effects (nose movement, slip, polar degradation, wind noise) they have incorrect feedback from the sim - to turn you don’t need rudder - thus develop, strong incorrect habit.

Incorrect rudder use at final turn is quite common reason of spinning at low alt and thus death.

Please note - you probably learned and did RL gliding for long before any decent glider sim was available - your strong habits come from RL so sim deficiences doesn’t affect you that much, but now we face opposite situation - many student pilots now come with significant sim background - and they have totally incorrect conception how turning in RL in gliders works.

For me right now I catch myself that even though I have proper rudder pedals I often forget to use it in LS4,AS33, Discus as nothing bad happens - only K7 sometimes reminds me to use rudder. Luckly I instantly do the correct thing when flying in RL - as it seems I react on different feedback the RL glider forces provide.

And this observation about new pilot students, that first they have to unlearn bad habits from sims is quite common in instructors - thus giving bad opinion about sims in general - please help remedy this situation.

Recently at polish FB gliding group there was discussion about some older article that analyzed deadly accidents in polish training glider SZD-50 Puchacz.
I did my basic traning with it and for me it is a perfectly good trainer - it can also train aerobatics and spins - so it requires clean/proper piloting skills and signals you your errors.

Sebastian Kawa (17 times world glider champion) commented this article perfectly in my opinion (highlighting importance of correct rudder training):

The problem of modern training is the lack of learning to properly control the legs, the rudder. Generally bad control technique and bad coordination. And this is badly taught by badly trained instructors. They teach students after simulators or after flight training, where the legs are not used as hard as on a glider, and you do not fly as close to Vs in turns as on a glider. The Puchacz is a normal glider, not a parachute, and this is the student’s first verification before flying other gliders. If the glider nose floats to such a student, excited vertically with incompetent control of the ailerons only, he should not go any further. Then such a pilot would like to fly with something better, and then he would have problems. For example, try the JS1 21m! There were even oscillations and spins during the aerotow! I do not hope that this opinion will reach the minds of those who teach. I rather expect hate, but oh well. Such a world. And the badly trained pay for it.

3 Likes

So since this is an feature request thread for gliders (and I hope the devs see this)
we can sum things up to:

  • true to life adverse yaw behavior
3 Likes

I just tried these values in the AS33 and right away it felt much closer to what all the real pilots were saying.

aileron_up_drag_coef = 0.4 ; 
aileron_down_drag_coef = 1.1 ; 

I’m gonna try 0.3 / 1.2 next.
Real pilots should really try this tweak and give feedback.

1 Like

I went one step further, using these values

aileron_up_drag_coef = 0.3 ; 
aileron_down_drag_coef = 1.2 ; 

It felt even better.

Here’s a right turn without rudder input.
You can clearly see how the nose moves to the left in the beginning.

I tried even more extreme values, but at some point i stopped noticing any difference.

1 Like

One issue with this adverse yaw implementation seems to be that the spoilers start having extreme effects when using otherwise appropriate values.

I don’t know if that is something Asobo need to look into, or if that can be ironed out in the mods flight model.

1 Like

Some questions I’d like Asobo answered in relation to official gliders implementation:

  1. Will there be an open/closed beta version available with gliders for collecting feedback before november? When, how to paticipate?

  2. Besides officialy announced 2 free gliders sheduled for november are there any plans for additional, payware gliders? Can we expect additional (paid) official gliders in the future - like local legends, etc?

  3. If only those two are planned - why both are non-flapped gliders? Proper/realistic modelling of wing performance with different flap configuration (including negative!) so that they have the same performance (glider polar) as in real life is crucial for serous glider implementation. Please consider implementing glider with flaps.

  4. Can we expect proper weather synchronization (both in live weather and when using custom presets) in multiplayer so every glider will get the same lift from the same thermal under the same cloud or at given ridge at given time - no matter when given player joined the flight? As without it multiplayer glider flights won’t be possible (desynchronized weather).

5 Likes

As without historic weather currently in MSFS we often cannot do cross-country soaring where we want using live weather (due to inappropriate local weather or cold season) so we have to search for good soaring spots around the world - so very helpful feature for flying gliders with live weather would be addition to World Map → Filters → Weather Layer a Thermal layer or even better ‘soaring index’ layer, so even novice pilots can quickly find place where they can successfully try to fly a glider.

Thermal layer would simply state how much thermal lift player can expect at given area - it would also be helpful for GA pilots as those will be areas they also want to avoid due to “turbulence” :slight_smile:
Soaring index would take into account more factors - like cloud base heigh, type of clouds, sunlight - just like real soaring forecasts do to predict good soaring conditions (MSFS would have it easier as it knows exactly what weather is at given place).

MeteoBlue already has a “Thermal forecast index”
Thermal forecast Index - meteoblue

Perhaps that could be included… since it appears to be a subscription on their site.

I hope Asobo’s thermal calculations are in line with the forecast :thinking:

And yet another directed to Asobo & FlightSim Studio AG (subcontractor implementing gliders):
It seems that current flight model (SU9) doesn’t properly handle dynamic stall - I recorded video illustrating the issue MSFS 2020 SU9 Gliders No Dynamic Stall - YouTube and compared it with more realistic Condor 2 behaviour resulting in less control authority and autorotation due to nonlaminar airflow.

Hope they will test it on their official glider implementation and till November extend current flight model so this very important for RL safety stall condition is also propertly simulated.

2 Likes

I’m guessing this is why my hammerhead turns seem so miserable in MSFS yet I could nail them every time in FSX :wink: