B407 i can fly without touching if use my trim and balance it in this way i can even rotate around
my rotor axis
So i from my experience it is not impossible to control
Just make sure you setup your joysticks profiles right.
Dont forget to include trim controls with them and a recenter button
I’m using the TM Xbox sidestick (Yes I bought another one) with the “Default” profile and experience none of the spinning thats been talked about in the above conversation. I have rudder asist turned on and cyclic assist turned off. The 407 flies fine for me. The only thing I don’t like is how much forward stick I have to use to fly. Also the hat switch on the cyclic stick doesn’t click forward for trimming, only backward.
Months later, wondering what the community thinks now about the 407. I’ve already logged many hours in it and it is certainly flyable now, but maybe that wasn’t the case early on?
I fly with Oculus VR (helis) are much more difficult to manage without peripheral vision of the horizon line and the ability to quickly look left and right while hovering.
The 407 is definitely a challenging aircraft to fly in MSFS. I’m not sure if that is due to the nature of the aircraft, or the quality of the simulation as I don’t fly them IRL. I have flown several other rotary wing aircraft in Xplane with varying levels of difficulty.
One of the key problems I have controlling the 407 is in the immediate transition from the ground to hover. The anti torque pedals seem to generate sudden and wild swings in either direction. Adding some torque, but not enough to take off should allow you to use anti torque to gently rotate the aircraft on the ground. Instead the machine suddenly lurges to the left or right. Once in an established hover the pedals have a less drastic effect, but still it takes a very light touch on the pedals to prevent what would be a very uncomfortable yawing motion. My virtual passengers will need the barf bags handy.
May have been mentioned before, but adjust your joystick sensitivity, both rudder and cyclic. Play with the various sensitivity settings to see what works best for you. Trimming the cyclic controls can ease control of the heli in the various phases of operation. Also, on general helicopters, an input on one control will have an effect on anothers. There are numerous videos providing insight to this effect. I have flown RC helicopters for a good while. I have been flying XPlane and MS FilghtSim for decades. Just recently I finally figured out how to properly coordinate the controls of the heli’s so controlled lift off, hover, forward flight, approach to landing, and taxiing can be achieved. Patience and much practice.
I wonder how many people are attempting to fly helos without the right equipment. Back in the old days before I had proper pedals I could pop the default JetRanger straight into forward flight without pedals, but hover is basically impossible. While I can fly them without VR, it’s very difficult to taxi successfully without the full visuals provided by a VR headset.
So far, I’m generally impressed with the flight dynamics. (YMMV, I’m not a IRL helicopter pilot)
Yeah I think this is a huge part of it. VR and high quality controls make a night and day difference for helis.
Pssst - Although I’m no helo pilot, it’s still a fact that they don’t have “rudders”.
Show I use the aid/help for “cyclic controls” and … well, cant remember its name; the other option. Or try to learn without (using a normal, budget joystick with spring).
If you have a joystick, I would try without cyclic assist. The most important thing is to remember that the center position of the stick is not „neutral“. The neutral position changes depending on power, weight, wind, speed, etc.
So find the current neutral position in the hover, where the helicopter stays in place, and keep the stick there. You will have to fight the spring, which is easier if it is a soft one.
Asking a favor: Can anyone please try to replicate? Since Fall (Update 14 maybe) in the 407 at low speed any cyclic input yields a very strong right yaw. In fact the yaw change is far more significant than the attitude change. This is easy to replicate. Just lift into a stable 10’ hover and apply generous cyclic (forward is best). With no added collective or pedal, you should experience a strong yaw matching magnitude with the amount of cyclic. Yes, there is a tiny amount of torque increase which is expected. But it is minor and would be unnoticeable in the real machine. (I have a fair bit of helicopter experience but none in an actual 407). I am using an XBOX with an Elite 2 controller. Everything is set to full real with none of the “bespoke” helicopter assists selecting. I would especially like to know if PC users experience the same. For me, this behavior is only experienced in the 407. The Guimbal behaves like a real helicopter. Thanks in advance for any attempt to duplicate.
I can confirm, the 407 has a very strong yaw to the right when you push the cyclic forward. Other helicopters (Cowansim 206, MD500) don’t have this tendency.
Tested on PC.
Many thanks for testing!
Eric
Keep in mind that helicopters do not all fly the same. Just like airplanes do not all fly the same.
If new to helis(or just don’t want the workload), use tail rotor assist. But never use cyclic assist, you will always be behind the helicopter. In fact, the more linear and sensitive the controller is, the better. The self-centering action of a typical joystick also works against you in a heli. Just that built in mechanical ‘reference’ to a ‘center’ has no bearing in a helicopter.
Tail rotor assist isn’t so intrusive and really just keeps the constant anti-torque workload down, you still have pedal control and will definitely need to learn to adjust cyclic and collective accordingly during turns to suit each helicopter. This carefully coordinated behavior is very different to each helicopter and changes dramatically even within it’s own envelope. Trying to hover with any tuning down/dampening of the cyclic will make it much harder to learn, even though it’s not easy to learn. It should be razor sharp in response.
Some flight models may have an unrealistic ‘sensitivity’ to authority, like it feels like it’s capable of 400 degree per second roll rate of an extra 300, but you also need to get used to most of your flying, especially hovering, being a ‘war’ within 10% of the total throw of a joystick. It needs to be fingertips and minutae. I can imagine it being quite difficult with an xbox thumbstick, if you look at the massive curves of sensitivity and dead zone they have built into their default profiles.
When you ‘get it’, with a decent control interface, you shouldn’t even need to actively think of what you’re doing, you should be looking at a spot and just getting there. There won’t be a moment of full deflection and wait for a DC3 to roll flying a helicopter. I’m pretty darn good doing FPS games with an xbox controller, wouldn’t dream of flying with one.
Torque changes never go unnoticed in the real machine.
A cyclic input changes the pitch of the blades, which increases drag, that slows the rotor rpm, which then needs a power increase to maintain rpm, that increases torque, which requires more pedal input, which increases the translating tendency effect…that requires more cyclic to counteract, which introduces more drag…
Its a never ending dance of small smooth inputs to stay ahead of the machine.
Every input of one control in a helicopter requires an input to the other two as well. The throttle too, if it’s not governed.
So, in the situation described (pushing cyclic hard forward in a 10 ft stable hover), is it realistic to see a 45 degree yaw to the right?
I’ve flown turbine powered helicopters. Just not the 407 which, in any case, has a reputation of being quite straightforward. The MSFS 407 was just that until the Fall update. The current yaw with cyclic is new. Cyclic yields way more right yaw rate than attitude rate. Clearly a mistake.
No its always been there! When it released it didnt have working tailrotor so when you pushed down the cyclic it turned right and any movement you did enhanced it, since basically all directions pushed it too the right, so it was like spinning a karousell no matter what you did, then came the tailrotor fix, made it flyable, kinda…
Cyclic still crazy.
And complaining here only leads to everybody thinking you are stupid that cant fly a heli and starts describing how a chopper works… see above…
All mscenery choppers fly like this too and they dont have any tailrotor fix.
So yes, 407 has a cyclic issue since release that is completely crazy that it has not been fixed.
You may be right in some respects but what you’ve described has not always been my experience. A year ago the B407 flew just fine for me. Others can call me stupid and they won’t be the first. My 75 hours of helicopter time makes me no expert.
It makes you more of an expert than 99% of the people in here 