In MSFS GA Planes, do you feel like you are Landing, and even Taxiing on ICE ??
Also, what is that strange transition that occurs just before you touch down (Not Ground effect ) – its almost as if the Flight Modeling has jumped into another mode.
FSX has a similar issue when it was first released.
It seems X-Plane has mostly got it Mastered.
But MSFS, to me, seems like I am always landing the C172 on a very ICY runway, and then continuing to taxi on a very slippery surface.
Anyone else feel that ?
With all the complex High Tech modeling that goes into Racing Simulators, I would have thought that tire/runway modeling would be a “Done deal”.
OMG – what a great co-incidence - 1st reply is from an expert.
So, is it just me, or is there an issue here ??
As a GA pilot who has flow both C150s and C172, the MSFS models they seem super slippery to me on the runway.
Are you aware of any adjustable parameters or ha the ball been dropped here.
I admit I have not tried in Legacy Model mode - should probably do that !!!
If you specialty in this in Sims, or real world ? – strike that – just saw your Bio Info !!!
This is one of those things where X-Plane and MSFS take different approaches but neither really nails it.
To be fair, proper tire modeling is ridiculously resource heavy, and is probably best left for racing sims, at least with current hardware.
X-Plane feels just a bit too light on the ground, especially with GA planes. MSFS feels a BIT too sticky on the ground.
The issue you have seems to be when a plane is right between ground and air… perhaps one or two wheels are off the ground and the other is on… and it gives a sense of slipping… especially since rudder control is extremely sensitive. Like having one shoe on concrete and the other on ice.
For now, X-Plane has at least ironed out their issues for a more consistent feel, while MSFS still needs some work on this ground to air transition.
But neither sim really has the available resources to make the tire on tarmac feel perfect, as most computation goes to the flight model in both. Like I said, that can be done, and is done in racing sims… but it is taxing, and flight sims prioritize flight, the wheel feel is not exactly an afterthought, but they cannot spend a ton of resources modeling it perfectly… not yet at least.
MSFS can get much better though. For now, we just kinda have to make due.
From Memory (im at work) the ground contact is defined by 5 values. x, y, z (location), Friction, dampening (not in right order). If the plane feels too ‘sticky’ you will have to change the friction values. I cant remember which one it was (think the 4th value), but i would have to check which one it was.
Try it again with what I said in mind. You will notice the wheels on tarmac kind of stick, making the free wheel(s) slip like on ice.
The result for us feels slippery, but it is really an issue of sticking.
I tend to fly GA.
I also am usually a sim racer, so I pay a lot of attention to tire feel. Who knows how long I will stay a racer though… I am being bitten by the flight bug.
Yeah it is up the top in the ‘flight model’ text file, under contact points. There may be another value for spring rate in there. It is confusing because for some stupid reason they dont do x, y, z. It is something like y, z, x. I found the easiest way was to change the value you think it is to a very high number. That way you can actually tell which one you changed. Be aware is a real pain and will take you a long time to get it sorted.
I’ll preface this by saying that I have never flown of aircraft of any sort. I have however driven on snow and ice plenty.
“On ice” is… you touch the brakes and they lock, and you stop decelerating and just slide. Or as soon as you turn the wheel to steer at nearly any speed, you likewise just slide.
I have not experienced either of these. I get on the brakes - plane slows down. I steer the nose wheel - the plane turns, and continues to turn proportional to my rudder pedal input.
If the turning radius of aircraft is off, that’s maybe a separate concern.
Disagree.
Source: Worked at a major tire company’s world headquarters and technical center for ~4 years, and have worked on a NASCAR Cup team for ~10.
Its not quite this bad … at least in the GA planes, but I wonder if when it is below freeqzing and wet/ snowing, if any of the MSFS Heavies can do this ???
Imagine how that feels as Captain, to be sliding like that … Your whole flying Career could flash past you before your eyes
Yeah, the tire feel is off. Sometimes I feel like I am skidding while taxiing and taking a corner. Sometimes I feel like one wheel on the ground makes the whole plane pivot with just a touch of rudder.
It can be hard to tell if I am slipping because of centrifugal force and/or loss of traction sometimes. I don’t think I ever feel the tires slipping, but sometimes it looks like the plane is slipping on the tarmac. If it is, even a sound cue, or FFB rumble might be informative so I know to ease up (these may be in the sim but I don’t recall noticing them).
And tight turns are often harder to make than they need to be.
I don’t dwell on it much, as it would be like dwelling on the imperfections of flight modeling in a racing sim… but that whole tarmac feel could use some serious adjustment.
Sorry i forgot to look at the values and get back to you. I just had a quick look at the C172 and it seems the only points with friction are points 0, 1 & 2. I have not changed them to be entirely sure but the 8th value of 0.424 looks to be the friction of the nose wheel, then for both the other wheels they have a co-efficient of friction to be 0.132. If it is not right then the 6th value given as 0.5 for all is the one to change. The others dont seem to fall into values i would associate to a friction co-efficient.
So the order of values after the contact points seems to be:
Point.No. = y, x, z, Design mass, Wheel No., Spring rate?, Steering angle, Friction but after that it gets confusing. So i cant guess what the rest of the values are for.
Thanks so much for remembering and getting back to me … very much appreciate, while not necessarily expected in this forum :()
I have a pretty wide Electronics & Software Engineering background, but not much in mechanical sciences
The “feel” I get is that the Nose wheel is not slipping on the runway, and not slipping when I turn, but the main wheels are sliding sideways, and they are the wider tires, that should have more side to side stability for the plane ??
I am going to try increasing those 2 and see if I can get the plane to stop feeling like it is sliding on Ice ~!!
No prob. I’m kind of the opposite - I’m a Mechanical Engineer and it has only been the last few years i have really felt comfortable diving into the software and electronics side. I didnt like electrical engineering when i was at uni.
I dont think the sim differentiates between straight and lateral friction. It seems to be one value for all. Overall its a pretty simple modelling of planes. Have a bit of a play around with the values and see how it feels.
