Letter to Asobo/Microsoft

Hello @rgp1942,

We already have a much better method to collect player data than a low-sample size forum poll. We know exactly what planes players choose to fly and how often. Like all major games, we have a very detailed automatic telemetry system that sends us details of every flight from every player (literally millions of data points). All data we receive is anonymized to remove personal information, of course. Among other things, we know the following information about every flight ever flown in MSFS:

  • Aircraft type
  • Departure airport
  • Arrival airport
  • Time of flight
  • Distance flown
  • What weather preset was used (including if Live Weather was enabled)
  • And much more!

You may have already seen that we shared some of these details in an infographic to celebrate the three-year anniversary of the PC launch of Microsoft Flight Simulator back in August.

Thanks,
MSFS Team

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Look at you and your fancy schmancy telemetry :slight_smile: :stuck_out_tongue:

Cessna still leads though :rofl: :evergreen_tree: :trophy:

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The most popular wishlist item only has 2605 votes, most of the others are much less.
I remember reading somewhere some stats about how many players there were worldwide broken down by PC, Xbox, occasional and regular players etc. I cannot remember the figures but I think it ran into millions. Judging by the the number of reads per forum topic it would seem that the number of people using this MSFS Forum only represents a fairly low percentage of the total customer base with a relatively smaller number of regular contributors whose names keep popping up and an even lower percentage voting, so I am not sure how much impact the voting system alone can have on decision making.

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Hi,

Does that include the number of people using VR? As in relation to this thread there are serious bugs not fixed going on years now, the Shutdown Bug (https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/engine-shutdown-breaks-immersion-in-vr/ )being just one and a prime example of a major immersion breaking issue still not fixed, for sure we may well me in the minority but that should not deter the developers from fixing serious issues that affect those people any less than others.
Thanks

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It probably goes without saying for the business analysts who work on this telemetry data, but the number of users who set their airliners flying on autopilot and then leave their computer running for 10 hours while they go to work / go to sleep / go shopping / spend time with the family etc. may skew the figures in terms of pure hours by aircraft and flight type etc.

Hopefully, you have a way to look at the data with/without these data points, to better measure the balance between users based on actual time interacting with the sim, i.e. if I player hasn’t touched the mouse, a control or otherwise in over 10 mins, they are probably not at the computer and the sim is ‘playing’ itself.

No judgement against people who use the sim like that, but data can be easily misinterpreted or misunderstood, leading to data-based decisions which can then be misinformed.

Back to the main topic - this was an interesting thread - I just want to add my voice that I would love to see a little more insight into the bug-fixing progress. The weekly newsletters are (sadly) fairly static in their bugs/wishlist information, which is a shame since it’s a “development update”. Meanwhile, the dev Q&A is great for feedback, but is too packed with a thousand desperate viewers vying for their questions to be answered and becomes chaotic.

While I realise Asobo can’t be too vocal or detailed in the information given out about what they’re fixing (as users would then pick apart everything they said), it would be great to see more output on which topics are really in the pipeline. There’s a lot of low-hanging fruit and small quality-of-life issues that seem to be ignored for too long. It’s understandable why users often feel frustrating at minor “bug-logged” issues still being around after 1-2 years and many sim updates.

Anyway, I think we’re well overdue Seb giving us another presentation on physics improvements, so let’s hope for that at the next Q&A as it always cheers me up! :smiley:

Quick addition:

They do know, and I recall Jorg saying that about 10% of flights were in VR, on a dev stream around a year ago. I expect it’s growing, but slowly.

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This is good! Thanks!

I would think that this empirical data from ALL flyers, not just forum members, would be useful to developers in deciding what aircraft, scenery, weather, and addons to develop. I’m not a developer, but if I was, seeing what is liked/used seems like it would be useful in planning what products to develop. For example if antique airplanes were popular I would plan to develop one that is not already available.

Any chance this data base could be made available on a web page? Maybe as a sortable table? Or is it proprietary? I’m not sure the effort would be justified, but maybe you could poll your official/credited developers?

The things you have provided in this thread and this thread recently have certainly helped us understand some of the decisions and plans Asobo has made. Thank you very much for your involvement!

-=Roy=-
:slightly_smiling_face:

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Hi,

Yes I’m aware of Jorg stating that but he unfortunately did not state exactly how he came to that number, but that’s irrespective of the very fact that many VR bugs have not been fixed after they’ve initially been broken in Sim Updates. These “backwards” bugs should be dealt within a very strict timely manner, but all we see is the same “Bug Logged” going on for years, with no idea if the development team have even looked at them which makes me believe they’re going ignored.

Meanwhile other minor VR bugs, ironically with far fewer votes or not even in the bug forum at all, get fixed. The whole process of bug management seems very mismanaged from the outside and having had decades of experience in this industry I can usually tell when a product is not being managed well enough in this area (unfortunately something I see in many games of course!), there are far too many tell tale signs where I believe this could be vastly improved and the topic of this thread is just one of those areas.

Thanks

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Good point when considering the importance/weight of “votes”.

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Can I get 5 more “likes” on this thread? I want to see what happens when the count gets to 100!

HA HA!
:smile:

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with respect, arent you contradicting yourself here?

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absolutely nothing. Except the gift coupon for the 3 weeks in the Bahamas but otherwise, nothing.

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Thank you. I have changed the text of that paragraph to read as follows…

I also understand your being hesitant to spend any more time on the 2020 version, now that you have committed to a replacement version. However, I am concerned that many of the issues in MSFS 2020, that are not being held back because of “hitting the limit”, will not be addressed as a result of your focusing on the 2024 version. Some of these issues are preventing the full exploitation of the current offering. Essentially the product is being unnecessarily handicapped. Here are a few examples.
… An “event viewer” for diagnosing problems.
… Updating the multiple window feature to allow viewing of different cameras.
… The ability to save controller setups with hangar craft.
… Correcting the save/load feature so that a flight can be fully continued at a later time without a lot of user intervention weather, date/time, location, altitude, aircraft settings, etc. are all the same as when you saved the flight. NOTE 10/20: Recent testing has revealed that most of this issue has been corrected. The loaded numbers for a few things like altitude, speed, rpm are close to what was saved – but not exactly – but close enough for most intents and purposes.

In summary here are what I would consider the “take aways” from my original posting.

  1. I understand that (1) you have reappraised how you developed your “core code”, and need to adjust it to allow for future development, and (2) to facilitate future provisions and reduce the amount of client storage required you want to change the product from being “client based” to being “internet based”.
  2. Most of the asks/requests/wishes and bugs/issues/problems are not due to “hitting the limit” of the core code of MSFS2020. There is still a lot of life in the 2020 version, and the 2024 version could be a long ways off (2024 optimistically).
  3. In swinging the pendulum from client based to internet based please keep in mind that internet bandwidth is an issue for many of the users.
  4. In making decisions and plans for version 2024 please keep “the rest of us” in mind. “The rest of us” being being defined as exhibiting the following: not airline pilots, not military pilots, not having $5K+ computers and gigabyte internet connections , flying mostly for recreational and entertainment purposes, being aviation minded for most of our lives and wanting to experience the history and development of aviation throughout the years, want to experience that history as well as modern day recreational flying vicariously/virtually, have been (or wanted to be) full scale pilots previously in our lives but are no longer able to fly full scale because of cost, health, age, or opportunity, enjoy the camaraderie and social contact of being able to share a mutual hobby with others, enjoy the challenges of bush flying or striving for the perfect landing, simply love being able to fly over and experience the scenery all over the world, and more “the rest of us” things that others can identify.

:slightly_smiling_face:

Excellent post, but I got a bit lost when you started saying that you don’t use ATC or Live Weather and whatnot, cause a lot of that is important to me.

But, really, I get the spirit of what you’re saying and agree. Please make sure to remember there are folk with little computers and just a joystick, and, maybe, spend a little time addressing what you’re doing to help us in a Dev Q&A sometime.

And I’m pretty sure they are always thinking about the “rest of us” as it were.

Don’t take it too much to heart that they’re not based on the Dev Q&A’s. As always, they only have an hour or so to talk. And there’s what, probably a couple of thousand people working on the sim when you add in the side arms of Gaya and the Bing folk, and the photogrammetry companies, and the people at MeteoBlue, and so on and so on. So they can’t cover all the different development going on. They have to pick a few to talk about.

So, yeah, please spend a little time discussing some of the points in his post some time Jorg, et. al., too.

Yes, I don’t want to take this thread down a rabbit hole as pointing out this technicality misses the point of and spirit of his post, but, yes, the sim is already all three, client (pc, steam, xbox/gamepass), internet (cloud access), and xbox (technically client based since it’s just a specialized PC with a “single” configuration (and sandboxing for safety)). And 2024 will be the same, they’ll just be streaming a higher proportion of the data types (it may not actually stream more data in totality, though it probably will).

Ooh, you should try this today, no reason to wait until you’re older. In 4K with the 55" to 85" TV at the same distance the cockpit panel would be, it’s amazing as you’re basically sitting in a true to life sized cockpit. I’ve been doing it since essentially the sim came out. The added advantage is, when you’re not simming, you can have a million windows all over the place.

I have a better computer today, but I was flying along just fine in 4K with an i7-4790K and a 2070Super and 18MB of memory for about a year and a half.

And, having said all that, circling back to the OP… as I noted, I have a better PC, but, yeah, even today, I’m perfectly happy being fixed at 30fps, and was happy when I was only at 15fps while taxiing.

I might be wrong, but I’m nearly positive that the lack of some of these features, like the window system, have more to do with the change in the graphics engine than they’re not being “FSX flyers”. While the new graphics engine looks better, it comes at a cost in other features. Look at the issues people are having with their GPS screens going black (a much simpler rendition of multiple windows) because they are running out of memory to drive it. Now multiply that by 10,000.

This sounds easy. I get the feeling, however, that the problem is much, much bigger than it appears.

Um, probably unfortunately, I bet it does. If it was high, there’d be more investment in supporting it across the industry. Sorry. All this time later, it seems like a losing proposition as an investment opportunity given the amount growth in the industry over the last 10 years. Just not enough interest compared to all the other investment opportunities. Sadly, I’ve heard HP is exiting the sector soon as one example.

(I’m a VR user myself)

Totally agree. Statistics stink. But I think we all have to remember they are NOT just using one source of data to make decisions to what they choose to do. And they keep saying this, but people seem to not listen to what they’re saying. They’ve got experts there, and it would cost them tons of money if they were stupid about how they interpret (stupid) statistics. You can make statistics say whatever you want, which will quickly ruin your business.


In the end, it can’t be stated enough that this, and any, forum is a small microcosm of their business. Teeny. I’m glad they put so much effort into talking to us.

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Thanks for the information and thoughts! Very informative. The net result of this thread is that I feel much better about where MSFS is going, and how it is being managed. I’m looking forward to the future of it, and many more hours of enjoyment. I had my annual physical yesterday, and in discussing my advance directive we decided that whether or not I could play the simulator should be one of the criteria for end-of-life care! :o)

Thanks again for what you’ve shared!

P.S. Since you shared hardware details I will do the same. I have built and upgraded many PC’s since 1978. The one I’m currently using was built several years ago with one of the goals being to run FSX/P3D. Then I upgraded it to fly Aerofly FS 2 in VR (Samsung Gear VR goggles). Here is the hardware I used to create these videos, and am currently running just fine with. At my age I’m not sure I’m up to building my another computer, but hopefully MSFS 2024/5/6 will not force me into popping for a $5K+ off the shelf system.

Here’s the numbers on my system. The only CTD I’ve had in the last two years was caused by my accidently shutting down the PC during an SU update (had to reinstall MSFS to fix).
CPU: I5-7600K OC’D TO 4.5 MHZ | GPU: EVGA GTX 1060 SC GAMING ACX 2.0 OC’D TO 2000/4000/1700 | MB: MSI Z270 GAMING M3 (BIOS DATE 07/2018) - RING FREQ 3900 MHZ | RAM: 16G DDR4-3600 SET TO 3600 MHZ | MONITOR: 27" 1920X1080 | CONTROLLERS: THRUSTMASTER T16000M JOYSTICK, THRUSTMASTER TWCS HOTAS, THRUSTMASTER RUDDER PEDALS, POWERA 151881 XBOX CONTROLLER (only used for camera), INTERLINK-X RC FLIGHT SIM CONTROLLER - 17 STICKS/KNOBS/SWITCHES ASSIGNED (this is used to create all my videos because I can fly a flight simulator better with it than a joystick because of my 50 years flying rc aircraft [and FPV drones]).

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:+1::grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

You were right. No bell rang or badge given.

what you didnt receive the fruit basket :wink:???

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This is a wonderful post. I appreciate the generosity. My feelings are quite similar except that I am doubtful that I will put money into MSFS 2024 version at all and at this point I’m questioning whether it makes sense to invest in any more paid addons for the current version, given Microsoft/Asobo’s apparent priorities. As with the OP, I care not at all about accurate snow cover or perfect cloud modelling when I can’t have an independent camera view on a separate monitor or get basic functions to work reliably. I actually HAVE considered going back to FSX at times.

I confess to being perplexed; are there really that many more “professional” users of this software compared to “the rest of us”? The apparent priorities would indicate that the majority of users have full-fledged cockpits with hardware for all their instruments and controls so that they have no need to see instruments on a monitor. Are there really enough of those folks to support this software? I don’t get how that jives with the Xbox crowd who presumably have even less hardware. I must be missing something here.

I also find it very hard to believe - as the wish list would suggest - that there are more people who are concerned about accurate vapor and condensation modelling than basic functionality like independent camera views in different windows, replay, and flight saving.

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Thank you for this post. I certainly share many of your opinions/concerns and have a similar background (74 years old, did my RW flight-training/flying in the '70s for the most part, began flying sims in the '80s on an Apple IIc, though I drifted away from the MSFS version for a while when I found the Fly! sim to be more comparable to my RW experience).

A couple of comments:

  • As a former VFR pilot (with a little IFR experience) I really value the tremendous navigation systems updates - they allow me to experience IFR flight far beyond what I had achieved in my short time in the real cockpit and to familiarize myself with all of the many advances.
  • I agree that what should be very basic tools in the sim have not been finished. However, the most striking failure to me is the absolutely inappropriate behavior of most of the default aircraft when taking off and landing in crosswinds. Since this is one of the most basic tenets of flight, it certainly should have been corrected before any new scenery or aircraft were added.

I do agree that FS2020 is an amazing achievement in many respects and I enjoy it immensely, but I hope that even basic flight maneuvers such as crosswind performance can be corrected before they move on.

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:+1:
0123456789

The point about the streaming/ client based, I sure hope the focus is not all on streaming, maybe good to have an option for folk with not great broadband, mines fast but I would still prefer most stuff installed on my xbox.

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