List of Force Feedback hardware

Discussion Hub Home Cockpit Builders
, ,
1

Since I hadn’t seen one yet, I thought I would compile a list of force feedback hardware, including yokes, sticks/bases, rudder pedals, and even collective. This list does not include force sensing, just FFB.

FFB yokes
CLS-60/120 - https://flitesim.com/
CLS-E Mk II - CLS-E MK II Yoke | Brunner Shop
CLS-E NG - CLS-E NG FORCE FEEDBACK YOKE – BRUNNER Elektronik AG
SHYK01 - SIMiONIC – Get more with flightsim
HW-FFB-CSN/GA - https://www.flightillusion.com/controls/ffb-yokes/ (Flight Illusion B.V. have now ceased trading - https://www.flightillusion.com/)

FFB sticks/bases
Moza AB9 Base - MOZA AB9 FFB Base - MOZA Racing | High-Performance Racing Simulators
Cyber Taurus - x.com
FFBeast - Flight Controls | FFbeast
AeroFusion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-_ci7lS0pQ&ab_channel=AeroFusion
VPforce Rhino - https://vpforcecontrols.com/
CLS-E Mk II base - CLS-E MK II Joystick TM Hotas - Brunner Shop
CLS-E Mk II A320 - CLS-E MK II Joystick A320 | Brunner Shop
CLS-E Mk II Jet - CLS-E MK II Joystick Jet | Brunner Shop
The Eagle - https://www.simnautica.com/product-page/the-eagle-ffb-stick-cyclic-base

FFB Rudder pedals
CLS-E Mk II - CLS-E MK II Rudder Pedals | Brunner Shop
CLS-E Heli - CLS-E Heli Rudder Pedals | Brunner Shop
GA ForceFeedback - https://www.simnautica.com/product-page/ga-forcefeedback-rudder-pedals
Helicopter anti-torque pedals - https://www.simnautica.com/product-page/helicopter-force-feedback-anti-torque-pedals

Brunner also have a CLS-B, and CLS-P rudder pedals, yoke, sticks, and collective. These don’t even have prices on their website so are probably creeping into the tens of thousands I expect. Main difference other than build quality is much higher forces at play, and are up to FFS Level D.

CLS-B rudder with toe brakes - CLS-B RUDDER with toe brakes – BRUNNER Elektronik AG 380Nm
CLS-B yoke - CLS-B NG YOKE – BRUNNER Elektronik AG - 190Nm pitch / 11Nm roll
CLS-P yoke - CLS-P YOKE – BRUNNER Elektronik AG 750Nm pitch / 35Nm roll
CLS-P stick - CLS-P JOYSTICK – BRUNNER Elektronik AG 50Nm
CLS-P rudder - CLS-P RUDDER – BRUNNER Elektronik AG 900Nm
CLS-P collective - CLS-P COLLECTIVE – BRUNNER Elektronik AG 50Nm
CLS-P rudder with toe brakes - CLS-P RUDDER with Toe Brakes. – BRUNNER Elektronik AG 900Nm
CLS-P with linear motion - CLS-P LINEAR MOTION – BRUNNER Elektronik AG 2000Nm(!)
CLS-P Mk II cyclic - CLS-P MK II Cyclic – BRUNNER Elektronik AG 10Nm pitch & roll

15 Likes
2

Good thread :+1:

Personally, I am quite interested in the new flight stick coming from MOZA.

2 Likes
3

The only issue I see with the MOZA flight stick is the advertised peak torque, it is quite low for both roll and torque, I believe about half required for full simulation of elevators in a 172 and probably about right for allerions – just a base aircraft that I know the vague estimate torque requirements for, it is probably more suited for flying jets which I am not sure what the numbers would be.

The bonus of the decrease in torque I guess is metal parts can be replaced with plastic parts causing a “lower cost”, but they have not done it this way it looks like as it is within the price range of other yokes/sticks, but with lower torque values.

1 Like
4

As much as like to have one of those, they all seem to be for cockpit building.
Isn’t there anything anymore to just fix/put on to my desk like the old Microsoft sidewinder FFB or the Logitech FFB hotas that once existed.
Also they are all around a 1k price point, didn’t find anything complete for sub 500.

Edit: I literally didn’t realized which sub forum I was in. :sweat_smile:

1 Like
5

Many have desk clamps, or can be fitted to third party desk clamps.

These are a niche item, for a niche community, so a sub-500 FFB anything is unlikely for now.

6

Even if that’s true (I haven’t checked) that’s not necessarily a problem for simming, maybe more so if you are practicing to fly a real 172 which most of us are not.

The important thing for a realistic feeling and ability to trim properly and feel aerodynamic forces is just having the FFB. Whether it’s 50% or 100% is largely irrelevant.

Also less force makes desk mounting more plausible.

3 Likes
7

Not an expert on the technicalities of FF to be honest. Interesting comments though :+1:

1 Like
8

This is an interesting thread and especially for me, having been an FFB user for errr… 27 years now. In that time, I have used 3 sticks, these being the Gen 1 MS Sidewinder, the Gen 2 MS Sidewinder and these were rep,aced in around 2008 or 9 with the Logitech G940 HOTAS setup, of which I have two! I have the Sidewinders away and they are still in use and the G940 is as good as gold.

All three of these sticks gave and continue to give fabulous service and all three were compromised by poor or non existent software leading I suspect to many early FFB adopters throwing the towel in. The answers came with third party software which gave a better experience and more tweakability. If the hardware was well built and they all were, then to be blunt, they simply provided the interface between sim and software. The G940 has stronger motors than the Sidewinder, but there is great subtlety to be had from the latter.

Subtlety is something that I shall come back to shortly, but beware the marketing hype… Videos showing great wallops of force might be good for the marketing department and preaching to the unconverted ( I am talking about sticks here and not yokes which have a slightly different requirement) but in my experience, you actually need surprisingly little force anyway. That feeling of the trim requirement is unreal for a very long time after your first flight. Likewise, the stick, the aircraft “talking” to you, letting you finesse your way around the skies is a joy so deep that for me, no force feedback would be a loss so great as to give up simming. If you have to input massive amounts of force, the chances are that you are doing something badly wrong. It is better to have just enough to let the aircraft talk to you, whether that might be aerobatics, high G manouvering or bleeding off that last few knots on the approach, feeling the forces dissipate around you. Bottom line here for me, is “Dont swallow the hype”

A yoke WILL want higher forces available as being further from centre, there is a greater moment and stronger motors will indeed make a difference. I am looking at the CLS 60 myself as a possible last major FFB upgrade. It will give 90 degrees each way from centre in the roll axis and finally for a left hander, a chance to fly left handed and drop my HC Bravo to the right. An FFB yoke I could enjoy a lot, being more of a GA flyer these days. Will it give me more in terms of FFB? I very much doubt it to be honest. The rest I have already had for a very long time.

Finally, the elephant in the room. Cost. Yes, it isnt cheap, but… over the lifespan of the G940, I have had around fifteen years of solid use. The Sidewinders? I know that at least the Gen 2 version is still running. The Gen 1 (gameport) possibly sits on someones shelf. The G940 cost me around £245 I think. Over fifteen years, that is pretty cheap. If a successor costing a nominal £900-1000 does half as well, I couldnt call that expensive.

If you got this far, thanks for sticking with it, no pun intended.

4 Likes
9

It’s a pretty big elephant too. Like when I priced out a collective, the price was (and is) insanely high. So I built my own. Then made a yoke using the MS-FFB2 and a Saitek yoke, then built a set of FFB rudders from a pair of Saitek combat pedals. Just popped on a motor and used Mobiflight to run them. I know this is not a viable solution for many but hopefully there will be a growing number of suppliers to bring the cost of FFB hardware down to a more realistic price.

2 Likes
10

What interested me most in the force feedback department, was the ability to trim in the pitch axis by feel, like in a small GA plane, without the always the same neutral mechanical position of the typical flight sim yoke.
As I already spent way too much on my simming stuff I was unable to afford real FFB yoke. So I modded Honeycomb Alpha Yoke instead for the price of about 50 euro in AliExpress parts:

3 Likes
11

I have a newbie question: Do Airbus Fly by wire aircraft have any Force Feedback in real life? How does the pilot know when they are above the angle of attack? Can they feel the buffeting in the ailerons or do they completely rely on the on board computer to indicate potential stall

12

No FFB on Airbus fly by wire, not even a stick shaker. There are loud aural warnings, the pilots would also feel the buffeting of the aircraft, and of course in Normal Law the fly by wire will not let you stall, it will take corrective action, including automatically forcing toga thrust.

13

Add VPForce to the list of pedals, but it’s DIY only at this point. There are instructions for TPR, MFG and a few others in the discord. Here’s mine:

image
image1848×1288 190 KB

1 Like
14

Great list as i built two full sims. A baron G58 and now a H145 heli.

I had a brunner cls yoke and rudders. They were awesome. Their anti torque are terrible heli. Its the same unit as the mk-ii rudder without toe brakes. It does act the way anti torques do in a real heli.
Brunner cls e mkII joystick is great for planes but if you slap an extension on for heli its a no go. The motors get hot quick as you over power it. The cls-p is professional level used for certified sims. I had them quote me on their cyclic and it was 6k. Anti torque 5k and Collective was 4k.
Sim nautica I reached out a few times and the owner took over a month to get back to me.

Rhino is a great base.

I have a moza on order to try. They will be a game changer for a lower price point than brunner.

1 Like
16

Thanks for the info on Simnautica. Since it appears that they and Brunner are the only places selling FFB pedals off-the-shelf there is limited choice in the market. Guess I may need to look into DIY options since Brunner service/support is dismal and Simnautica is a black hole. Recently picked up the Moza AB9 and it is pretty good for heli simming thus far, not sure it will suffice for yoke based aircraft and looking at getting a CLS-120 instead…wish there was one (reliable) vendor so I’m not having to use multiple drivers and telemetry software. Thanks for compiling this list BTW, it has helped!

17

At this point I am waiting for 2024 to be released, FFB support to mature a bit, and the hardware market along with it. I don’t want to buy a Betamax when VHS is just around the corner.

18

It’s all about software, I would guess no manufacturer wants to miss the money from not Supporting an native FFB telemetry that 2024 might have some day. The hardware isn’t the issue, they have to adopt a new way to handle the data . This could be early or late but I’m sure it will happen

19

2025 will bring the Flitesim rudder pedals and perhaps their sidestick.

WinWing may release their control loading sidestick.

Moza have a control loading yoke in development.

1 Like