Longterm for XBox

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I too love flying just to explore new places but have yet to try a bush trip, ha ha no idea why. I will purchase the DC-6 when it’s fixed.

I am not so sure you will find the PC experience any less frustrating, that was the very reason I moved over to Xbox. The constant need for computer updates, equipment upgrades and software incompatible versions it was a headache.
The growing pains with Xbox for myself so far are not too bad. I really only have a purchased aircraft that was a dud, a scenery pack that was broken by MS update and another scenery that hopefully is a work in progress and has been improved a bit (enough to use).

Xbox perfect? No, but I think things will improve. The new Beta has been really smooth for me. :crossed_fingers: :airplane:

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If you are going through all your addons and making a list of what works and what doesn’t, perhaps you could post it? I could add to it as well and maybe others would too. We could make an “Unofficial 3rd Party Add-on Compatibility List”. Maybe that would help the developers, and Microsoft and Asobo might take notice.

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Folks are doing a bit of that here:

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I understand there will be driver issues. I’m a developer that has to work with Oracle. NVidia doesn’t scare me… I have $3000 in content already in 4 months of XBox. It wouldn’t make sense to cheap out on the hardware. I would go Intel 12900, 32G DDR5, RTX 3090, 4Tb m.2. I’m not going to have to update anytime soon. And I will still have my XBox.

But at least with PC, I feel like I can have things under control. Imagine doing bush trips with all my airports and scenery along the way, and being able to do it without worrying I will be forever locked out on that account. Sure, there is a 99.9% chance I can do that now on XBox, but there is that 0.1% chance I won’t and then on my main account, I will be locked out and there isn’t a thing that can be done about it after that. I’m a very unlucky person. My dad’s favorite quote to me was “If it wasn’t for bad luck, you would have no luck at all”. I don’t want to go into a bush trip knowing there is that chance, and if I do get a bad leg save, to be kicking my rear that I went and did it knowing what might happen. So I use the spare account that if I get locked out, no big deal, its a disposable just for the bush trips. If I’m on PC, when I have an issue with an addon, I can report it to the developer, and I know they will be confident they can fix it. Right now, the last month that I have been reporting various XBox specific bugs, I literally feel like I have to apologize to the developers. And yes, one I had a long conversation with, and yes I ended up having to give THEM a pep talk. How do you maintain confidence after that? Then to hear other developers talking about they are reconsidering their commitment to XBox. Sure, that would be for future addons. But what about my current $3000 investment? If they are struggling this badly when there are XBox specific issues, how sure can I be that they don’t pull current product off the marketplace for XBox? There. I said it. The pink elephant in the room. Not everyone is experiencing what I’m experiencing, because not everyone has 300+ addons on XBox, of which a host of them now have specific XBox issues, and they are feeling helpless. What does that mean for my current $3000 investment?

You have some developers wondering what is going on. Its taken months for someone to look at their product on XBox. You have other developers taking guesses at what is wrong, releasing updates, and they don’t fix the problem. It was a guess. At what point does my $3000 investment end up a $2500 one with product being pulled off the marketplace? At what point do I start losing money? Yes, of course the developers like the revenue from XBox. And if it is a problem with their addon that also happens on PC, they have all the confidence in the world the issue can be resolved. Bring them an XBox specific error, and you hear about how difficult it is to test, how difficult it is to support, etc etc etc. And you can sense the frustration. I can understand their viewpoint, but I don’t think they get mine. How do you go about feeling safe with your purchases you encounter that? I’m just the consumer. Its not my fault that its so hard to develop and test on XBox. The bigger developers, yeah, they aren’t going to pull out. But what about the smaller developers. The ones whose addons only have rating counts in the teens or less. They’ve sold how many copies on XBox. If they run into issues like this, how long before they say the increase in sales isn’t worth the support costs. Since we are talking about developers that most people don’t buy products from, most of you all aren’t going to care. For me, I have to start wondering, when are they going to start pulling out, and I start losing money unless I go to PC. I didn’t want to bring that up, and I’ve been dancing around the conversation point, but yeah, there it is. I don’t like the possibility of being locked out content I bought, and I don’t like the possibility of losing content I bought. I’m not worried about what won’t come to XBox in the future. Some of the stuff that is developing XBox specific issues, its not high end stuff. There doesn’t seem to be a rhyme or reason what will break and what won’t. And when you talk to the developers when you do have an XBox specific issue, you hear the same level of frustration I know all too well. Remember before I mentioned Oracle driver hell? I’m at the point where my team spends so much time managing drivers, changing passwords, having to worry about Wallet, I could just go on. Probably about 20 hours a week for the team combined just goes into supporting Oracle related nonsense, and so I’m at the point where its not worth it to me and I will convert all my databases to Azure SQL. So yeah, I can definitely see if frustration builds with these smaller developers and XBox support costs go too high, they are more than likely to pull out of XBox marketplace. So now in Paul Harvey’s words, you see the rest of the story. I’m just not feeling safe with my purchases. But I’m going to point out, not everyone buys everything. Not everyone is buying the stuff I figure I might lose. Not everyone has the same issue or same viewpoint I do. The only place I feel 100% confident with my investment right now is PC.

This is my hobby. Being able to fly in the plush recliner with heat and massage, you really have no idea how big a selling point that is for me. But I don’t feel safe in it right now with my investments. So I don’t mind throwing $11K at a solution where I can feel safe (it wouldn’t be just the computer. I would have to get a computer desk, a comfy gaming chair, a monitor, and if I am having to go that far, might as well throw in VR so that investment doesn’t seem like just a lateral move). In a way I kind of feel like I have to do it.

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My problem with updates even if they happen, (and I’ve had a few updates for 3rd party marketplace products) is that any fixes if they come are slow to get through approval again , so there’s no quick fix.
The other issue is what I mentioned before about SU compatibility. Who’s monitoring that? M/S ? The devs? End users? No one? To me there’s no visible system.
My advice to you would be to not buy any more scenery on marketplace. There’s loads of free airport scenery available and a lot of it is good quality as freeware on PC. Just hang off until you buy a PC then go download it. The freeware on flightsim.to at least lists whether compatibility is confirmed after each SU update. I’ve had very few issues with freeware so far.

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I understand. There’s a lot of confusion regarding Zendesk.

Well worth a look here; some good info:

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Marketplace items need to work period. It’s just wrong to release things this way. As much as I hate saying this, they may need to shutdown the Marketplace down on Xbox at least until they get things working properly. This should certainly be a priority task. They are pretty gung ho on releasing content and update after update yet the current batch and earlier batches of things aren’t up to snuff. @tgbushman has at least a few conflicting items causing crashes and etc. This is unacceptable. Everything in this game is far too expensive not to work, for Microsoft to not offer immediate compensation in the evsnt of things wotking unless there’s enough outcry is disgusting. Policy change is needed in this regard but shouldn’t be needed because things need to work at least at a level that doesn’t cause a catastrophic failure in sim.

This might be controversial but I’m even thinking there should be a leadership change or a restructuring of sorts within the ranks. At least “some” red tape needs to go perhaps as well. A change up in the status quo may be a good direction, who knows unless they try. The need to try something, they can’t stand around shrugging shoulders and scratching their heads forever. Get moving now, not tomorrow or “some time” in the new year.

I stand by my idea about having a dedicated division for xbox only related issues. Forming a new Temporary Taskforce or something, bring in some fresh eyes could do the sim some good. Stop being cheapskates and invest more into it, we’ve paid our money and I know I’d like more piece of mind.

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I really wish they would use a better world than Solved !!

Registered maybe. Accepted, Logged, IN-System etc etc Anything but “SOLVED”

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I have to admit on holding off on buying add ons when I had the xbox. I think I limited myself to 4 or 5 which I’m now using on PC. I just wonder what the QA system is like after each sim update for marketplace releases. I mean the PC users always seem to be expecting add ons / mods to break (from their past experience) and hence the system they have for checking freeware compatibility after each major update. Something like this may go on internally behind the scenes for marketplace/xbox but who knows. I have had a couple of previous updates via content manager for 3rd party content, but it’s quite infrequent, and there’s no flag system to say “compatibility checked” with with SU6/7 etc for instance.

I think at least XBox users need their own bug list and maybe a point contact rep on here for issues. It is the feeling / perception of being ignored that grated with me. No bug list, problems reported into an apparent vacuum. XBox too recent/new/immature to care about? I just wasn’t prepared to wait about with no answers, fixes, acknowledgement or official bug list for any longer.

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Here’s an idea I’ve played around with today.

Perhaps we, meaning you, me and also @tgbushman, could collaborate in making a post to be voted on. We seem to articulate ourselves quite well, I like to at least I think that I do haha. Thing is I don’t know where it should end up. The Bugs and Issues section or more like the Wishlist part. Unsure.

Hoping that we can count on peoples support from this thread, everyone is on a similar wavelength here, maybe we could get a ball rolling. This in theory should boost exposure and kick things up another gear.

Other mods for example will likely see it and take notice as well since there’s suddenly a new post that’s garnered a bunch of votes relatively quickly. Fingers crossed that it’ll pick up the traction it deserves, then we’d have to get a response, in theory of course, god knows when it comes to this anymore.

It’d be awesome to create something that consolidates everyone’s feelings and concerns here into a 1 or 2 paragraph thing that people can contribute to which also may help legitimately escalate things further.

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This thread already captures the gist of it though. I like the forum for info/learning purposes, but it’s a bit hit & miss for thread voting tbh. Unless you get a universally acknowledged annoyance say like “weather is broken”. Then it’s hard to grab anyone’s attention, let alone garner votes. Votes on here really are not guaranteed from my experience. I even have to remind myself that the mechanism exists.
Unfortunately we live in the new social media reality with short attention spans, and people who like to be heard but who don’t know how to listen. It’s unfortunately the reality we have to live with in 2021. I really don’t know what the answers are.

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The thing is, I’m not sure voting is going to have any relevance. Voting is for what Asobo is going to address. The test labs and test methodology, that is Microsoft that deals with that. Most the Xbox specific problems ultimately go to the Microsoft team too. Voting is how important it is to MSFS users, which directly helps Asobo focus, but Microsoft has to weigh not only this sim but all the other games, and cloud games, etc. our voting has no impact on what they look to address

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Could always clickbait with something like, “XBOX Broken…oh, Hot Girls and Free Booze Also!” :rofl:

This has been good for me to finally vent and get some ideas out there. Everyone’s been awesome here and I’m thankful like you wouldn’t believe. I’m really surprised there hasn’t been any arguments break or a console hating PC Elitist chiming in to “put us in our place” like I’ve seen other threads deteriorate to. No doubt you know what I mean. Kudos to everyone here.

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I think I mentioned something similar earlier in this thread but 100% agree. Fixing whatever issue is going on between the testing environment and Xbox’s in the wild must be a priority and taken care of ASAP. You cannot tell me at this point that these problems a lot of add ons are running into are not related in some way or fashion to each other and the Xbox version itself.

That’s why I was shocked to hear the DC-6 would be a few more months - I’m assuming whatever they fix on the Xbox platform for that add on could help a lot of the issues we are seeing across the board with other DLC. I find it remarkable this isn’t on a similar scale of importance as these post SU hotfixes we always see. Is this not considered a pressing, game breaking issue for Xbox that the majority of these add ons aren’t acting the same way on a live Xbox vs. the testing environment? I guess MS/Asobo don’t see it that way which is such a shame.

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Oh, for Asobo and Jorge, I bet the issue is even higher priority than some of the other issues. The test labs and the OS are Microsoft XBox. Any fixes or changes to testing, that comes from them, not Jorge and not Asobo. And they have a different cadence for OS releases, and their priorities are mixed between MSFS, Forza Horizon, whatever Bethesda needs, etc

It’s this difference that makes me feel my investment is best with PC. Say what you want, the Asobo folks are hardworking, and they want to give us the best experience. Microsoft Xbox folks, we are just another game to them, and they will get to us when they get to us. THATS why 3rd party developers feel helpless when it’s an XBox specific issue. Asobo will work with them. xBox folks, not so much. They just kind of do their own thing. I feel my investment is safer on a platform they are not in the equation

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See part of me thinks that Jorg has a lot of pull with this product. I’m trying to be fair here and I get it’s not just Asobo, but this is MS Flight Simulator on a MS console and MS OS (as you stated). Not a 3rd party flight simulator… I guess I hoped having their name on it made it a priority.

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The trouble is that FS (even on PC) has been at best a moving target for many 3rd party devs, add in a closed ecosystem like the XBox & marketplace and the situation is more unpredictable. In 6 months FS will have what? Potentially 3 more Sim Updates, 3 more World Updates, more DLC like Top Gun, and who knows how many hot fixes/patches. So the platform in 6 months is highly unpredictable. All these updates potentially coughing up more as yet unknown new issues/bugs.

Do you think that you can predict/project that in 6 months time everything will be fixed, stable & predictable enough for 3rd party devs to make new plane releases possible? Or will FS just be a continually moving target? Will they even have the inclnation to throw resources at it by then? I potentially see more of the same that’s happening now going on tbh. Maybe it’s just the pessimist in me though.

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I don’t disagree at all with the constant updates and moving target for 3rd party developers or closed nature of Xbox. Or even the rigorous testing needed for Xbox add ons to make it to marketplace. Those are major obstacles as well.

My issue here is there is appears to be a larger global problem on Xbox that spans multiple updates, effecting numerous add ons and only is visible on Xbox. Take out the SU’s and WU’s, this problem still would exist between live Xbox’s and the testing environment. It’s been there since release. Just think about all the Xbox add ons you purchased and thought, “how could testing have possibly missed this?” or “they released this without checking the door would close?”. This is a major reason why.

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Yeah, developers are disamused by having to make updates each time. But since this sim will give them more sales than any other simulator combined, they will make their changes. For PC, they get to test them on a PC, and development is all in their control. FOr XBox though, all they can do is simulate during the development cycle. Then they send it off to XBox, and it goes into a block box, and it either goes on the marketplace or it doesn’t. And if there is an issue, ultimately XBox will get to it when they get to it. Milviz has been waiting for 3 months now for a solution to putting DRM onto the Corsair so it can get in the XBox marketplace. Seafront Simulations has been waiting 2 months for their issue. In that 2 months, to Seafront Simulations credit, they have been experimenting with things trying to figure out why it doesn’t work on XBox.

You notice in my very first post, I presented a solution that would allow developers a way to test on an XBox during the development cycle. That gives them a way to be able to have some control, be able to see what works and what doesn’t. Right now, all they can do is hope and pray when they release to XBox knowing it passed simulating. And when there is an XBox specific issue that requires the XBox team, well, that addon falls into a list of priorities with other competing games. Actually, probably to the XBox team, even if an addon is totally broken, in their minds, MSFS still works without it so it falls into a lower priority compared to games that have definite breaks. Yes, to us, to Jorge, to Asobo, to the developers, its a big deal. But from an outside view like XBox has, MSFS still works, they will get to it when they get to it.

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This does seem like the way it is sadly. Add in the marketplace and its requirements and slow approval mechanism even for updates, lack of real world testing for XBox and having so much content it was bound to have issues. I honestly can’t believe that there isn’t any openly visible compatibility checks done after each sim update. They can’t just say oh that’s on the content providers not us. There has to be some kind of verification mechanism and that mechanism shouldn’t be the end user.

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