Modding Honeycomb Alpha Yoke for more realistic pitch trim behaviour - no return to always the same neutral position

Extract:

Modify existing yoke by moving the mounting point of the pitch axis centering springs via motor operated by 2 hardware buttons to simulate trimming (moving back and forth the neutral resting position of the yoke).
No electronics, no software, no data exchange with the sim, no roll axis FFB, no vibrations, no special effects.

Just the proper elevator trim.


Full story:

I’m a real world PPL(A) pilot using VR and Honeycomb Alpha yoke for simming and I really miss the real airplane elevator trimming behaviour - you set the pitch attitude/airspeed by applying the pressure on the yoke, then you trim by feel just to cancel the force, and the yoke stays in the new neutral position.

I’m not good enough at DIY to build full dual axis motor/electronics controlled FFB yoke and the Brunner yoke is too expensive for me.

What would you think about modifying the existing regular spring/bungee ropes based yoke (like Honeycomb Alpha) by adding a motor driven mechanism moving only the mounting point of the pitch centering springs versus the yoke enclosure. Without any software or electronics, without any communication with the sim, the motor could be just steered by two hardware trim buttons to move the neutral point back and forth. I can even imagine fully mechanical trim wheel, without a motor. The original potentiometers/sensors in the yoke should remain unchanged.

The operation:

  1. I want to pitch up.
  2. I pull on the yoke to set the desired pitch attitude. I must keep applying the force to prevent the yoke returning to the neutral position.
  3. I operate the hardware trim up button.
  4. The mounting point of the pitch axis centering spring moves towards me.
  5. At some point the forces applied by me to the yoke will dissapear, the springs mounting point will be now closer to me, the forces on the springs will disappear, the yoke will find the new neutral position.

The drawbacks:

  1. No trim indication in the cockpit. But in real world I never look at the trim indicator, I trim by feel only. The only exception - the initial trim setting before the takeoff. But this could be achieved by marking the neutral takeoff trim position on the physical yoke shaft and centering with the hardware switches.
  2. No roll axis FFB, no vibrations due to engine or turbulence, no representation of aerodynamic forces changing with airspeed.
  3. The risk of potentially destroying the Honeycomb Alpha yoke.

The benefits:

  1. The easiest imaginable way to represent the elevator trim behaviour. We should fly by applying the pressures on the yoke and then cancelling the forces with trim. We should not fly (as we often do in the sim) by operating the trim buttons as the primary elevator controls.

I would be happy to hear your opinions or even better to find a partner in pursuing this challenge.

2 Likes

I think this would be a great idea. One of the problems I have with GA flying is adjusting vertical trim. I know the theory and how to do it and use a trim wheel controller; however, getting the trim just right without force feedback is really tough.

Honeycomb Alpha yoke pitch bungee cord design is pretty tight, it may be difficult to move the cord mounts mechanically or to manipulate the tension in some way to move the neutral position back/forth :frowning:

I was thinking about installing much longer bungee cord, moving its ends through drilled holes outside the yoke enclosure and installing some manual mechanical wheel on which the bungee should be coiled. By turning such wheel (like a trim wheel in the GA plane) the neutral position of the yoke would move back and forth. But this would require 2 such wheels synchronized on in front and one in the back of the enclosure (outside the enclosure). This would be required to have the same tension for pulling and pushing. Hard to figure out the way to synchronize both wheels.
The bungee cord would also like to unwind…

Hi,

As a pilot IRL as well, I always had the same frustration about the trim, as the feel of “relieving an effort” when trimming is essential, and good trimming is an important part of the proper piloting of an aircraft. Force feedback in general is great, but less important IMO. So, as I was going to build the yoke for my home cockpit, I came up with the same solution.

In my case it’s built 100% from scratch, using an Arduino, 3D printing, and various hardware parts for bearings etc. It has an actual wheel to control the trim, and even a display of the current position.

And I’m pretty happy with it ! The main drawback is that the force is not dependent on the actual speed of the aircraft, so for example you don’t feel how it should become “lousy” at low speeds, but one can live with it. And anyway it’s still so much better than “fake” trim where you need to move the yoke to the center position while trimming which is very unrealistic and especially bad if you use your simulator to maintain real world abilities.

The most “difficult” part is to find a good way to build the tension, I tried many things and finally replaced the rubber bands with springs, that are a bit too strong but I’ll eventually find one that fits well.


Impressive.
Where is the motor which moves the neutral position?
Aha…
The motor is driving the rotating screw which moves the point of bungee attachment - simple and clever.

It’s a pity that no yoke manufacturer produces a yoke with mechanical or simple motor driven trim :frowning:
Probably because non-pilots are not used to the real world trim operation and no sim directly supports external mechanical trimming (trim controls will not move in the sim, unless some very clever programming would be applied).

As the first test I went to the extreme. To avoid the unrealistic always-return-to-the-same-neutral-position of spring/bungee cord loaded yokes, I disconnected the pitch bungee altogether.
So now I can fly more like the real life, by operating the elevator via yoke inputs without the need for the unrealistic apply-the-trim-and-smulataneously-go-back-with-the-yoke-to-always-the-same-neutral-position.
I know this is unrealistic in the other way (very weak forces on the elevator control) but I will see how it works in the sim. I would expect issues with applying backward pressure during a turn and the releasing it for straight-and-level.
But I expect it to be better versus the common wrong behaviour of sim pilots of controlling the elevator via trim inputs instead of yoke movements. Trim should be only used to cancel the forces on the yoke, not for actually controlling the plane.
There is still some resistance (I will consider how to increase it) on the pitch axis due to mechanical drag inside the yoke mechanism. To have bit better balancing of pitch and roll axis I replaced the roll bungee with a much weaker rubber band.




So far I’m rather happy with this mod (no pitch centering spring, very gentle roll centering spring).

First impression:

Pros:

  1. The yoke no longer fights against me! Suddenly it became precise control instrument.
  2. I can keep the yoke neutral for any airspeed, desired pitch angle.
  3. I can apply precise pitch changes, minimal control inputs and keep them easily.
  4. I can fly level despite power changes.
  5. I can flare and touch down like never before.

Neither pros nor cons:

  1. It requires very gentle touch. I remember my first flight lessons in not so perfect weather - I was literally squeezing the juice from the left yoke handle, next day my left hand muscle ached. My instructor spotted this and asked to keep the yoke with just two fingers - there are not so big forces required in small GA plane, unless the weather is really severe.
  2. It requires constant observation of the horizon to keep the plane level or at the desired pitch angle for climb or descent. But this is also what we do in the real VFR flight. When simming I prefer to be as involved as possible, I always fly manually, so I actually like this behavior.

Cons:

  1. There is no trim applicable altogether. No forces perceived. The yoke stays in any position I want it. I can’t trim by feel. I can apply trim artificially, and then move the yoke accordingly, but this has nothing in common with the realism. On the other hand, the default simulator trim behavior is plainly wrong - when applying the trim, the yoke should remain in position, only the forces should disappear. In the sim with unmodified sping-loaded yoke you must move it to it’s mechanical neutral position while trimming which is just wrong!
  2. Aircraft should be controlled by applying pressures to the controls not by moving the controls. When you apply the pressure the control (yoke) moves, but your muscle memory should be trained for pressures not movements. With no spring on the pitch axis, I’m actually controlling the plane by moving the controls, as without the spring there are no control pressures.
  3. To stay level during the turn I can’t just apply back pressure and release it when the turn ends. I have to control the straight and level more visually than kinetically, by observing the horizon line position vs. the cowling. But unless you have advanced moving platform, the whole simming experience is visual, lacking the flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants experience.

For now I’m happy with this super simple 5 min. mod and my new collaborative, precise yoke. But I will still think if/how the yoke could be modified for the movable neutral pitch position.

https://pl.aliexpress.com/item/4000360696589.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.4a29452cooJiME&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2pol

https://pl.aliexpress.com/item/4000834477859.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.4a29452cooJiME&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2pol

I’m not sure if modifying the honeycomb alpha would be more benefiutal to your time, or your money to modify what exists in the honeycomb alpha to a system like that or if a DIY approach is better suited… either way, modifying the HCA to have a new system, or creating a FFB yoke is going to involve some DIY mechanics unless someone here already has the design files.

Either way you go, will love to be informed on how it goes!

As for now I have high hopes that installation of the small linear actuator (see links in my post above) and following more or less the idea of @EconomyArc31614 (see his design a couple of posts above) will result in Honeycomb Alpha yoke mod which will be working and will be also reversible (probably I will need to cut a hole in the yoke upper cover to have enough space for the actuator but also to have easy service access; I will need to arrange some box cover to put it over the hole/assembly).

My experiment with no pitch bungee at all, resulted in discovery that I actually prefer way smaller forces compared to original bungee cords. Also the actuator will always work with the force, never against it, only to release the pressure (this is what trimming is about). This will allow using relatively weak and small linear actuators and not necessarily super sturdy construction.

I will report at the end of October, when the parts will arrive.

For now I’m going to experiment with a prototype based on Fischer Technik construction set (similar to Lego Technic). It allows moving the mechanical neutral
(no back/forward pressures/forces on the yoke handle) position if the yoke, according to different airspeed/trim setting. The video of the prototype below:

I found this video (link below). The modder was not pursuing the same goal but the video shows the interior of the yoke handle, this will be required for my mod as I will need to rewire the trim switch, to control my elevator trim linear actuator:

Parts from AliExpress arrived:

  • stepper motor controller,
  • stepper motor linear actuator with 55 mm stroke (a bit to short for Honeycomb Alpha, which has about 85 mm stroke)
  • stepper motor linear actuator with 80 mm stroke (with a weaker motor and a bit too much overall length for the Honeycomb Alpha - it may limit the travel of the yoke by a couple of mm).

Prototype 2.0 is presented on the movie - unfortunately I was missing my third hand to demonstrate the trimming principle while filming, I needed to use my leg to apply control pressures to the yoke :wink: Both actuators are mounted for test purposes, on the movie I’m testing the longer actuator.

The rubber bands for the pitch axis will be relatively easy to install (will be anchored under the yoke’s cover). Probably I will need to cut a hole in the cover to allow actuators fitting in.

So far the cost of the parts:

  • stepper motor controller,
  • linear actuator,
  • two position switch (not yet shown on the movie) allowing switching the left elevator trim switch on the yoke handle from working with the Honeycomb electronics inside the yoke to control the stepper motor,
  • 9V power supply,
  • rubber bands,
  • two end microswitches to limit the movement range of the actuator,
  • some wires and connectors.

is at about 50 euro.

The only permanent modification to Honeycomb Alpha yoke will be:

  • hole in the upper cover allowing mounting the actuator,
  • two small holes at the back of the yoke for power plug and the speed potentiometer of the stepper motor controller,
  • switch in the yoke handle (barely visible at the back of the handle)
  • one small hole in the handle and another in the yoke’s front panel for a control wires.

Of course this will invalidate the warranty.

5 Likes

Well … At least you won’t have to communicate with their Customer Service Department! :rofl:

Seriously, though, an interesting if not bold project. Looking forward to seeing how it all pans out :slightly_smiling_face:

2 Likes

Parts from AliExpress arrived in 16 days. Prototype v. 3.0 which I hope will be close to the final version.
The actuator fits into the case but is a little too weak, so instead of running it at the rated 9V, I use 12V. Even with 12V it’s still on the weak side, so if I start trimming for bigger forces (bigger yoke pitch pressures/deflections) the mechanism may refuse to move. Just in case it will overheat and be destroyed, I ordered two from AliExpress. They are cheap.
I have also a stronger actuator, but it has two disadvantages:

  • it’s a bit higher and may not fit into the case,
  • it has smaller stroke (5.5 cm, versus 9 cm of the on I’m using now), smaller than the stroke of the Honeycomb Alpha (which is about 8.5 cm).

If my current actuator will quit at 12V, I will then experiment with the stronger, higher, shorter one.

I just completed the first flight test in the Comanche. It was worth the effort! Flying is much more like a real world (I’m a PPL(A) SEP(L) pilot)!

Pros:

  • trimming is now an act of feel, I just apply the control pressure and then use the trim by feel, until I no longer feel the pressure (previously it was and act of thinking - so much trim added, so much movement of the yoke to the neutral position),
  • yoke position now corresponds to speed, which triggers muscle memory and visual cues,
  • I can hear and feel (slight vibration from the stepper motor) the trim working,
  • in general - wow, so much more like in the real life!

Cons:

  • trim indicator in the cockpit is not moving, I can judge initial takeoff trim setting by the yoke position (when airborne it doesn’t matter, I trim purely by feel),
  • the mod will probably interfere with autopilots which may expect the yoke in the general spring-loaded neutral position, however both in real life and in the sim I fly manually only,
  • some people noted that the trim behavior I’m looking for is characteristic for small GA planes only, according to them, the hydraulic systems (or fly by wire systems) in airliners actually keep the yoke in always-the-same neutral position. But in both real-life and in the sim I fly small GA planes only.

Additional hint: As there is no permanent neutral/zero position of the yoke pitch axis, the yoke response should be linear, so any response curve defined in the controls setting in the sim or in the external tools (I use Axis and Ohs) should be removed.

2 Likes

Unearthing an old thread here, but simply because it is VERY relevant to something I’m pursuing and the discussion here is fantastic! I’ll give a brief summary below of what I’m doing, but forewarned I can be very long winded, so I’ll try my best to stay “brief” :upside_down_face:

Over the last year and a half I’ve been working on a flight sim yoke. Initially this started out as a personal project for an updated home cockpit I was building, but after sharing it with others in the community I found it may help fill a gap in the market. Again, to stay brief, the concept was to create a yoke for simmers that checked all the boxes most commercial yokes don’t; in short, lowest price possible at the quality threshold I wanted to achieve. This meant (at minimum) 12 bit precision, magnetic hall sensors, adjustable tension, quality hardware/components, custom PCBs, and most importantly interchangeable handles. I was able to achieve that and late last year began offering the yoke for sale https://skytation.store. I also have a view videos of it on my YouTube channel https://youtube.com/@Skytation

The response from the community has been great, but the number one comment I receive is why isn’t it force feedback? Well, simply put, FFB is way over my head… at least in terms of developing something custom for this specific yoke. However, in the last few months I’ve happened upon VPForce/TelemFFB which seems to be very promising in terms of DIY FFB with the motors/boards/software all being provided by VPForce, and the software being open source which as allowed the community to expand on it with custom aircraft profiles and all that. While this seems like a promising solution to help adapt my yoke design to FFB, it still comes at a cost. There is a bit of learning curve, the software/aircraft profiles aren’t perfect (for GA), and a kit from VPForce that includes the motors and control board (you’d still need a power supply, cooling fans, etc) starts at around $325 USD.

I’ve been pretty set on pursuing VPForce as the solution to help enhance my yoke and increase the realism, however from talking with others in the community (mainly IRL pilots) the majority of them have said vibrations, variable forces depending on aircraft/speed/conditions, and things like that aren’t necessarily at the top of their list when it comes to improving on standard bungee/spring yokes. They said mainly it’s the trimming process and how unrealistic it is with non-FFB yokes in the sim.

And that’s how I landed at this post… I started looking into how I could solve that issue without at least doubling the cost of my current yoke design. Initially the solution was pretty simple, I just needed a way to decrease the amount of tension in the yoke (bungees) as trim was applied. Naturally, based on how my yoke is designed, that meant moving the center point of where the bungee attaches to the sliding gantry. So I started googling about solutions to that issue and I landed on this post, and what you’ve designed here is almost exactly what I had considered; having the bungee attachment point on a ball screw so that its position could become variable/adjustable on the sliding gantry. In my mind, that’s the perfect solution to the trimming problem on non-FFB yokes.

That being said, I just have a couple questions for you (or anyone else familiar with this type of solution). How does it affect the yoke position sensors and how that data is transmitted to the sim (and I’m just talking pitch axis right now)? In other words, my current design utilizes a geared wheel underneath the sliding gantry which runs along a rack fixed on the extrusion frame. That geared wheel has a magnet on it which rotates around an AS5600 hall sensor which then sends the position data to the sim. So obviously once I’ve built the yoke, I calibrate them using the center position once all bungees are attached and engaged. If I were to incorporate a trimming solution similar to what is being discussed here, would that not mean a new “center” position of the yoke would be established any time it is trimmed up or down? In other words, if I trim up a few clicks the yoke handle would theoretically move closer to my body and the data sent to the sim would be that the yoke is sitting in a slight pitched up location. It would also think my pitch trim is sitting at a few clicks up assuming I have it set up so the trim button on the handle (or external trim wheel) being used is mapped to adjust the trim in the sim. Am I thinking about that correctly? If so, I mean the simple solution there is just don’t map the trim switch/wheel to actually make trim changes in the sim and simply let them move the physical yoke. I hope I’m thinking about that correctly, and I hope it was easy to understand as I wrote it. If not, let me know and I’ll try and explain it better.

Bottom line, what I’m wanting to do with this whole yoke project going forward is begin offering it in a kit form which would cut the price nearly in half. Basically my goal is to offer kits (both for handles and the base unit) which would include all non plastic (3D printed) parts. So basically you’d get the aluminum extrusion pieces, the hardware, all the wires/cables, PCBs, linear rails/bearings, etc, and then all the STL files for the printed parts would be out on Printables to allow you to go in and print and your own parts. This gives you full control over color, filament type, etc. But more importantly it also means if anything plastic were to ever break you have the full catalog of replacement part files right there and you can simply go in and print your replacement part. As I said earlier, the goal here is to give simmers a yoke that checks all the boxes, that can be customized to fit lots of different aircraft given the (eventual) library of handle designs I’ll be putting out there as I finish them, and most importantly allows them modify and repair their units as they wish.

Bungee and spring yokes are nothing new, and so even though I feel like my current design adds lots more value than some of the ones currently out there via my easy change handle design, it’s still just another bungee/return to center yoke. I really think adding something like this adjustable trim feature would help make it desirable and useful to a lot more people who simply want to remedy that immersion killer with the trim, but don’t want to break the bank and deal with learning curve that comes with full on FFB.

I welcome any feedback, comments, ideas, and anything else you may want to share. I think this idea with the ball screw to mechanically adjust the bungee center is a great idea, I just wanted to make this post to see if anyone could help me on those couple questions I had above. :metal:

Oh, and I just thought of one more thing, how will this affect auto pilot in the sim? I believe it operates under the assumption your yoke is always in a centered position, no? I feel like maybe this would cause some big hiccups with that…

NOTE: I should mention, this mainly only applies to GA style aircraft with push/pull yoke types. I know airliners and other fly-by-wire systems don’t necessarily behave this way, but that’s also why I’m building a pendular style base as well to help fill that need. It will share the same quick handle attachment system so that all handle designs I create can go on either yoke base seamlessly, but it won’t incorporate any of this adjustable trim logic since FBW aircraft typically always return to center when no force is being applied (as I understand it). I just wanted to make that comment since some people reading this who fly airliners may think this won’t work at all for those aircraft.

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Hi,

I implemented this kind of solution in my hand-made yoke described above.

With this solution, the trim is purely hardware so the trim position doesn’t have to be communicated to the sim. For the sim, it just stays in neutral position. And there is nothing particular to do with the Y position.

In my case, it was originally designed for a physical cockpit, and the actual trim position was displayed on a mini-oled screen integrated in the trim-wheel. So the information about the trim position used to stay “inside” the yoke controller (Arduino-based).

Then I switched to VR, so the visual feedback had to become available in the sim as well. Which means transmitting the trim position so the trim indicator is updated in the virtual cockpit. BUT in this case the effect on the attitude has to be canceled! This is highly important of course, otherwise the whole thing becomes incoherent. Which I explained in detail in this thread.

Hope this helps (sorry if not, I must admit that your post was a bit long and didn’t have time to read everything :wink:)

Awesome, thanks for the reply (and yeah, sorry I get long winded :rofl:)

One quick follow up… I’m asking these questions because I’m trying to determine the best way to add a solution into the DIY yoke I’ve designed that other simmers could build if they wanted to. Right now the options are to solve the trim issue in a similar way you’ve done here by not adding a ton of cost to the yoke parts (I haven’t priced motor cost yet, but I’m guessing this would be a sub $50 enhancement).

The second option, and the one I was leaning towards, was a FFB option utilizing VPForce/TelemFFB. A motor/board/software kit from him is around $375 USD shipped (to the US), so a pretty hefty investment for sure given I’m trying to keep the cost of my kit around $150 (minus the plastic parts the customer prints themselves). However, it’s a full FFB solution meaning not only does this trim issue get solves, you also get all the other benefits of FFB.

I know a FFB solution will still have its downsides aside from just the cost, but as a simmer (and pilot) what would you yourself prefer? Just a simple solution to fix the unrealistic trim problem for a minimal cost, or would you rather just have a full-on FFB solution if it meant about $300 or so more?

Send me your drawing and I’ll whip something up. I’m almost done modding my DOF Reality P3, but having to wait from some parts that won’t be here till Sunday, and need a new project. Or if that’s too invasive, send me some clear pics. Top, side, back, and a couple 45s from both the top front and bottom front. I can draw something in the abstract that you can then incorporate into your design. Help me out man, I’m jonesing over here. :cry:
EDIT: I really just need to know how your pitch bungie is attached. I’ve given it some thought since we discussed it in your thread a couple of months ago.

I can only refer to small GA planes, as I have no experience flying aything with hydraulic servo or fly by wire pitch control systems.

When flying the small GA plane, what I feel are yoke pressures, not absolute positions. When triming pitch in real small plane I go through following steps:

  1. I apply pressure to the yoke necessary for expected pitch attitude (to climb; or descend; or speed up = pitch down, lower Angle of Attack; or slow down = pich up, higher AoA).
  2. When I’m happy with the pitch attitude, I use trim to relieve the pressure from the yoke, by feel.
  3. So I don’t care much about absolute yoke pitch position, but indeed, when flying on low AoA the yoke absolute position is forward, on high AoA it’s towards me.

In the small GA plane there is not such a thing as absolute neutral yoke position. It depends on AoA.

My mod is purely electromechanical, it’s a H/W trim of which sim is not aware. I’m not using in-sim trim at all, trim position indicator in sim is always in neutral, I ignore it. For me the proper trim indication is just lack of pressure on the yoke. However, to properly set the H/W trim before the take off (no simulated aerodynamical forces acting on a plane to achieve equilibrium between yoke position and AoA/pitch angle) I can use the position of the in-sim yoke shaft as the indicator (very easy in A2A Comanche as there is visible wear on the shaft).

My mod dosen’t work with autopilot pitch control, it doesn’t bother me as I fly in real world only simple GA planes, without autopilot, VFR.
For small GA planes the trim implementation in most of the sims is just one bigh workaround adapted to simple bungee/spring loaded yokes which unrealistically exhibit neutral position in pitch; there is no such neutral postion in real small GA plane.

How does it affect the yoke position sensors and how that data is transmitted to the sim (and I’m just talking pitch axis right now)?

My mod is completely independent from yoke position sensors. H/W trim position is not transmitted to the sim at all.

would that not mean a new “center” position of the yoke would be established any time it is trimmed up or down

For calibrating some position of the yoke I can apply the H/W trim observing the yoke shaft position in the sim vs. the physical yoke. But I never needed to calibrate my Honeycomb Alpha. As there is no absolute neutral position the pitch response curve must be linear = constant gain.

mean the simple solution there is just don’t map the trim switch/wheel to actually make trim changes in the sim and simply let them move the physical yoke

I don’t use trim switch/wheel in the sim at all. I use only my H/W trim. Nice bonus: I can hear my physical trim motor working.

If you consider building some product and offer it to the fellow simmers, given the limitations (small GA plane behaviour, trim controls/indicators in the sim not cooperating, autopilot not cooperating) it would only appeal to real world pilots of small GA planes, who are used to steering by control pressures and natural trimming (apply the pressure, then apply the trim to relieve the pressure). The sim-only pilots are probably more used to the false feeling of triming offered by the sim. For them, it’s probably not false at all. Even airline pilots my prefer the way of trimming with the yoke/stick neutral position, as provided by the sim.

You may also find interesting the discussion on FliteSim.com Discord, the “how-trim-works” thread.

BTW: Your yokes/handles look fantastic!

For the VR pilots (I fly exclusively in VR) you may consider adding as many as possible buttons, switches, knobs on the yoke base and handle, VR pilots don’t care much for looks (we are wearing our headsets), we care more for the tactile feedback and easily reachable and cleraly distinguischable buttons/switches positions. This is the reason I modded the Honeycomb Alpha.