More Physics, More Real Winds

“I am a leaf on the wind; watch how I soar…”

(Obscure reference alert here - also incidentally the sequence is pretty much how I imagine @Nijntje91 felt his 40kt airbus approach was like :rofl:)

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Trying to pull the Boeing 747 at max. take-off mass into an accelerated stall here.

Couple of notes:

First of all you can see the wrong force balance I’m talking about, CP is in front of the CG with an up-force on the horizontal stabilizer to counter the resulting nose-up pitching moment, this is completely opposite from the real world. The CP moves backwards with increase in AOA and vice versa, also wrong.

I might have discovered something interesting, it seems like Asobo made the aircraft feel heavy and respond sluggish by reducing the flight control reactivity. The flight control surfaces (also the yoke itself when using cockpit view) are moving really slowly. Maybe they used this trick to correct for the missing inertia? The reactivity slider in the sensitivity settings does not seem to influence this.

I used full up elevator to force the aircraft (unsuccessfully) into an accelerated stall, the second attempt I used full up stabilizer and full up elevator, again unsuccessfully. I have to admit, I don’t know exactly what is illustrated in the developer mode but it seems the angle of attack does not correspond to the angle of attack indicator on the dashboard. If you look at the angle between the airflow and the box which represents the wing, it is no where near stalling angle while the aircraft exceeded critical angle of attack according the AOA indicator but with no loss of lift, the aircraft keeps climbing at an insane rate.

And note the weird acceleration in stabilizer trim when trimming for more than a few seconds. Also unrealistic. I assume the white wing box is supposed to be the wing aerodynamic chord? No idea why it moves though. The angle between this box and the relative airflow shows almost no angle of attack whatsoever during most of the maneuver until running out of energy at the top. It looks like the pitch rate and rate of change of the flightpath remains in synch and AOA is not being exceeded.

I don’t get it, all assistances off, modern flight model, feels like I’m flying in GTA V…

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Absolutely agree with you there from sticking my head in this particular rabbit hole. I’ve been doing various tests with the wind gusts again this morning with the A320, 747 and 787, adding additional wind layers in manual weather to try and negate the gusts etc, trying different settings, transitioning between layers to see if there’s any changes, and basically gone around in circles without being able to nail one particular thing down for now.

Going to try again later :nerd_face:

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There’s another post about the flight control reactivity that I think you’re referring to, where folk’s have looked at various broad classes of aircraft (aerobatic, small/medium GA, large airliner) and found that the larger the aircraft the greater the control delay to input. The control delay (input vs control surface reaction) increased with aircraft size. I think you may well be right that maybe that is a tactic they used to simulate inertia.

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Looking at this page:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/microsoft-esp/cc526949(v=msdn.10)?redirectedfrom=MSDN
section Moments of Inertia

and compare it to the documentation from Asobo.
https://docs.flightsimulator.com/html/Samples_And_Tutorials/Defining_A_Flight_Model.htm
section Define Moments Of Inertia

It seems that the old way of MOI calculation from FSX has moved to MSFS2020. But now we have much more forces on much more different points than in FSX. Maybe increasing the MOIs ridiculously with factor 100x of the “correct value” in FSX could give a more “realistic” feeling. Unfortunately i can’t test it. After testing alpha and beta i haven’t bought MSFS2020 due to the bad software quality.

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I also cannot understand at all what the white boxes and their relationship to what appears to be the Relative Air Flow (RAF) are meant to represent. The main flying wing of the 747 is not known for having variable incidence :joy:

I have not found any documentation that explains the elements shown in the display. We can assume that the green vector emerging from what appears to be the wing box is lift acting from the CoP and that the opposing red vector is perhaps weight acting from the CofG, but can we be sure?

It certainly seems so, the CP versus CG position and the resulting nose up pitching moment confirms the need for an up-force instead of a down-force on the horizontal stabilizer and to have longitudinal stability in this configuration the CofP needs to move opposite from real life. I have been checking multiple conditions using different aircraft. On small GA aircraft it entirely behaves as expected with the CofP behind the CofG and a downforce on the stabilizer.

Maybe someone here with more in depth knowledge could explain?

You can do that. My current cookbook recipe: Start at (L/D)max and walk through drag_coef_zero_lift, the empty_weight_*_moi parameters to the *_stability parameters. A higher drag_coef_zero_lift value makes the airplane “heavier” - whatever “heavy” is. The MOI parameters I call real inertia and the stability parameters I call fake inertia.
Now go ahead and play with these parameters. This is what I do since August 2020. My experience: Radical changes just break the flight model.

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Basic Law of Physics, Action and Reaction…

What Force/Forces are missing in the following Video? When it’s usually very essential and if the force is not present in the simulator, then as a deductive reasoning to other related forces, how the simulator should have responded, and if it does not, what can one conclude? It is quite an easy one for anyone who is inspired by physics? Which force is not present? Now this question is tricky, Because, As all pilots need to manage their risks, especially when coming across a territory that we all need to stand by rules, which will enable the physical world to offer the most beneficial economical outcome for all those that are concerned. (If you feel it’s too hard for you, Please ignore… Others will give you a chance of being more clever, because you can conclude from their own ideas or misperception to where our discussion is leading the roles.) I am sharing with you all this question because I am quite sure that all those who have studied physics, not in order to get the best grade, but to enjoy it out of pure enthusiasm will find it quite amazing how fast ideas can change within the noise…

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Why don’t you just say what you have to say instead of leaving everybody guessing? Don’t leave us waiting, enrich us with your great knowledge and incredible understanding of physics please!

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Gravity? Strong force? Weak force? Electromagnetism? @AdherentToast91 , please put us out of our misery.

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I was about to say this - stalling C172 was a lot easier before. I believe it’s more of an aircraft-specific change than a flight model change, but there’s definitely a difference. But this has been the case for a really long time.

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The photons impacting the aircraft fuselage are not simulated well, the aircraft should work like a solar sail, if the sun is on the right, the aircraft should develop a drift to the left but this effect is completely missing in MSFS!

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Sir, I respect your need, curiosity, and judgmental attitude, Sometimes, when a spiritual idea needs to have it’s manifestation, it only manifest purely when you can accept it without ego, or a need to change someone’s mind because you can’t change your own, we all have addictions to emotional conditions, I respect my own, and know to overcome them, But my communication over here should be with a sense of understanding to the limits that don’t present optimal variations of your opinions, but rather distorted ones. I believe that you are curious about the limitations of the simulator, But I have learnt that politics in the modern world, has a fantastic game theory of assets that present through the functions of time a suitable profit. That is why anyone that is hoping like me for a more sophisticated Simulator, would also want to know, understand and experience the thrill of it. While each of those process influence our brains in a total different aspect… I hope this will make you feel more curious about the conditions in the simulator. I will give you a clue Dear Nijntje… Something is going on just before the pause or after it, which is a clue to my question…

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Funny thing, but this part is pretty easy to simulate :smile:(works in Orbiter2010 4exmpl)

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The wise words of a real scientist.

Can I get multiple choice questions, I would also like to use my 50/50 and use a lifeline.

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Lets not start about orbital mechanics or we will be lectured until the end of times in this thread…

My favorite sim:

Excellent flight model, the graphics are a little outdated and the variety of vehicles is limited but it does feature a floating Tesla.

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In our simulator, one can choose to learn anything he/she pleases, We are all wise in the practical situations that bring more pleasure, profit, and balance… Most pilots love a balanced flight… Real Simulators are created for unbalanced flight.

The problem with the Multiple Choice Answer system, Sir… That kind of testing system doesn’t allow the student to really learn freedom, focus, no control and no free choice, it is to help him focus because the mind is very good at creative searching and the imagination pours more fuel into those choices… But then the questions become even harder when money starts flowing into the picture…

Ok, fair enough. Still no clue what the purpose of your video is though? We are not here to get lectured, I believe we are assessing the MSFS flight model, so what did you find?

I am sure you have never tried it, and you will not even dare experiment it on a real aircraft, but if you can imagine it, you might come up with the clue, … Have you tried letting go of the stick and rudder just before the touchdown with a 90 degrees crosswind of 40+ knots? I am sure no pilot has the guts to try that, except Test pilots who have been requested to experiment in order to conclude what might happened. Now pay attention, how your mind is seeking possible choices, possible conditions, “what am I missing?”… Hack the playful simulator, that you can learn and see if you can imagine the outcome… without trying it out… in a physical conditions or simulated ones under precise mathematical rules…