That would be interesting, but most small independent devs. aren’t in the habit of taking on other devs. work. Taog’s Hangar is a small team and they have 2 pretty big projects in the works that they have officially announced. The AS365 Dauphin and the SH-3/S-61 Sea King.
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I don´t know the version number, I am in the SU4 beta 1.6.31, and I remember the 407 worse than the FS20 407, and similar “tough” flight model like the R66-125 some months ago, now the 407 is like the FS20 407 or better maybe in flight model for me, after some minutes testing it yesterday.
I can tell you the number if you you tell me where to find it, and compare it with SU3 e.g..
One test is to pull up all the cyclic in ground, and the 407 now only spins a bit to the side, the r66-125 are still violent in that, and now the FS24 407 is more smooth, ¿maybe almost a year that I tested the 407 and this improvement is before SU4?, the R66-125 I flown them some 3~6 months ago maybe, and they fly exactly the same rough.
I remember a worse 407 flight model and comment it some where in this forum haha, I think I am not having false remembers haha.
If we confirm that devs are working now in the flight models would be great, and the next would be the other helicopters.
I flew the R66 in MSFS 2024 and after that flew the VSKYLABS R66 in XP 12. The R66 isn’t violent in MSFS 2024 from my findings but I digress.
The R-66 is enjoyable and a bit better than the 125 in violence hahaha, also enjoyable, maybe the FS24 R-66 is my favourite now, but the most tamed without any help for me now is the 407>R-66>=125, hope devs tweak them, or if they let the community repairing them unencrypting them….
I don´t know in other flight model parameters but in violence hahaha is the less the 407, sadly I am not a real pilot.
Yesterday I did a flight of ~3h on San Francisco/roads/bridges etc. with the R-66, and its west coasts and cliffs, and pebbles…, much better than FS20 an real, in one moment I felt that I could smell the sea and the saltpeter haha, and I am not joking in that, and could be better even with better photogrammetry/sea/coast waves etc.. ofc.
I just tried the B407 and it is as unrealistic as it has ever been. The lateral cyclic has about a third of the power to move the rotor disk compared to longitudinal cyclic. Lateral cyclic still blends heavily with yaw. And torque changes with cyclic in any direction are still extreme. Despite their reputation, helicopters are not hard to fly. If you are in a stable hover with a solid lock on the heading, no further pedal input should be needed regardless of the amount of cyclic—even when really tossing it about. Collective? Sure! Cyclic? No. There should be minuscule torque variations with even large cyclic inputs on hovering flight. In my opinion, the 407, as of December 3, 2025 is unchanged from three years ago.
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Are you now in the SU4 beta?, now is the same like in FS20 and its flight model, before was worse in FS24. Ok in my former post I had a typo and I wrote cyclic and is collective, thanks haha.
Sure anyway the flight model is not perfect, have you tried the R66 and the 125 and compare them?, are worse in flight model for me, and less the R66, hovering the best is the 407, cruising the R66 is on pair with or maybe better than the 407.
In the past they even needed less hours to go to the exam than planes (so maybe more easy than planes IRL?), I don´t know nowadays. That reputation in FS is sure haha, IRL is probably different.
I fly them both. Helicopters are, for most people, harder than planes. Getting the basics mastered in helicopters takes longer. But there are less areas of operation to demonstrate on a checkride in a helicopter. The time requirements for CPL are a little higher. And to teach helicpters (in the US) you must have 5 hours in make and model. No such requirement exists for airplanes. So I think it is generally accepted that helicopters are hardER but not particularly hard. People without flying experience use their perceived idea of difficulty to excuse radical behavior in some badly modeled virtual helicopters. The R66 and Tao’s 500C are examples of models done well.
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I only fly GA and Helos, mostly Helos. 407 has been and remains one of my favorite flights - maybe I’m crazy but I like flying Nemeth’s Helos. Have zero issues with it, can fly it at sea level in and out of sailboat masts with two fingers.
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@JGL574VRG2 the “violence” you are referring to is torque. When you raise the collective, you must add power pedal to compensate. This is realistic. The power pedal in the R66 & 407 is left, in the Cabri G2 and H125, it’s right pedal.
@SmokinHole1 there absolutely is a torque response to cyclic input. Not nearly as much as cyclic, but it is there in the real thing. The collective changes pitch on all of the blades ‘collectively’, the cyclic changes pitch ‘cyclically’. Changing the pitch of the blades changes drag, which in turn requires a power adjustment to maintain rrpm. The power adjustment manifests as torque, which then requires a pedal adjustment to maintain heading.
I’m not implying that all of the flight models for MSFS2024 helicopters are correct, just going through some of what you learn to obtain a private rotorcraft certificate. 40hrs is the minimum, but the average is 80hrs. I’m not aware of a ‘type’ requirement for teaching in helicopters other than the SFAR73 which applies specifically to Robinsons because without proper training they can encounter mast bumping easily.
while helicopters aren’t necessarily harder, it is a very different skillset. A lot of fixed wing pilots struggle because how you fly them is counter intuitive to what you know from flying airplanes. The B407 has augmented stability IRL. With that system active it is much less pilot workload to hover than say, an R66 or Cabri G2.
I agree that the default R66 and Taog’s H500C are two of the best helicopter flight models currently in MSFS2024. The Cabri G2 is excellent as well. I’ve never flown a real B407, but I have time in R66s and you can perform the same power checks and tests, as well as maneuvers in the sim with reasonably close behavior.
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Here is a video of my wife and I flying around our hometown. It has a really good view of the instrument panel and the pedals. You can’t see the collective, but you can get a good idea of what’s happening if you look at the MAP gauge on the right below the tach.
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Thanks for the responses. Yes, torque haha. Interesting the opinions about the FS24 R66. Hovering or moving slowly precisely for me the best is the 407 clearly in FS24 now, could be real also if IRL it has SAS, even I remember test to low all the collective and it don´t go to the ground like a falling rock like others helicopters in the sim, I didn´t test that in the R66.
And curious that the R66 nervosity haha hovering is real. Hope the more polishing of the H125 and H135 also, are great planes in IRL and in a Sim.
What I like also in the R66 in FS24 is the blades sound when you do a bit of force on them in turns e.g.., I love that tap tap tap haha
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Thanks! I remember now that video, great, really thanks for publishing it, and congratulations, you are very fortunate for that IRL.
And yep, it needs constant small inputs in the cyclic and pedals like the FS24 R66 hovering or moving slow close to the ground, yep
14 CFR 61.195(f)
Yes, but it is minuscule. As you say, cyclic inputs are cyclic. That means that while AOA (drag) is being added to blades passing through one half of the disk, it is being lowered on the other half. Yes, work is being done so Mr. Newton will rightly say that RPM will decay. But that effect is an order of magnitude less than collective inputs where drag is added or lowered across the board. In my hours of tossing helicopters about I’ve never needed to do any footwork unless collective was brought into the picture.
I beg you to do this in a real R22 (R44, B206, etc): Get in a 10’ hover and move the cyclic 1/3 deflection in any direction and come back to neutral quickly, as violent as you are willing. Do this repeatedly for 2 or 3 cycles. Mast bumping is not a risk. Without moving your feet, the heading will change only slightly.
Do the same in the MSFS R66. You’ll see a similar response to the real thing.
Now do it do in the MSFS 407, preferably with lateral cyclic. If you don’t see dramatically different behavior then you and I are flying different sims.
Also don’t forget equipment used makes a huge difference in flying, especially Helos. I fly a VKB Gunfighter stick on an AB9 Base, also using a Virpil collective with Sharka grip and VKB pedals with hydraulic damper. And I know a number of folks here use the Puma. My small movement control is very fine - I seem to often enough not have many of the issues I read about and I do often chalk them up to equipment differences. Just my 2 Cents.
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In that case you might be able to help me. I am using a controller. (Yes, I know it’s easy to dismiss it but that’s how I prefer to fly. I set it up like an RC transmitter.) For me, there is a dramatic difference between lateral (left/right) cyclic rate and longitudinal. In other words, the roll-rate even with full stick is abysmal. With your setup, can you detect a difference between pitch and roll? I’ve asked before and the respondent said “yes” but I do not recall their control setup.
I use a Xbox gamepad (Elite 2) also and in PC, and I use FSUIPC for to able to use the right trigger as collective (full linear movement, not half in each trigger), right stick cyclic, left stick pedals, and left trigger (thanks to FSUIPC also) gear brakes.
There is another program that does the same that FSUIPC I think, https://www.axisandohs.com/, I have to test some day if MS-Asobo don´t solve that like other flight/car simulators do since always.
I did this yesterday, 1/3, but in 2D, not in VR, and I didn´t notice nothing different, 407 vs R66 haha, I have to test again in VR that I have better control and perspective, just in case haha.
The difficulty with a controller is that even a very small input on a controller equates to very large movements in flight controls so having fine manipulation is tough. That’s why my equipment works so well - the very small graduations in my physical controls pretty well match IRL controls, so pitch, yaw and cyclic movements can be done with barely a whisper with one finger. As I practiced, my hand/arm/controls became a natural extension of my brain - I fly helos today not really even paying attention to how I’m controlling it.
I stand corrected. I’m sure I would have encountered those regs as soon as I start to train for a CFI rating.
As for your other points, I literally said…
and
I did make a typo however, and wrote cyclic instead of collective. Then I posted direct video evidence of my experience proving what I was saying.
This, however, is not something I would do in a Robinson. It’s at the very top of ground effect and doesn’t leave enough margin for safety. I would still be worried about mast bumping moving the controls quickly at that magnitude.
I will still recommend to use the assists if you are using short throw controllers, like a gamepad, to fly helicopters in the sim. It’s not a skill issue, it’s an input issue. It’s incredibly difficult and unrealistic to make the miniscule inputs needed to control helicopters. Did you see how tiny the movements were I was making with the pedals in the video? …and this with full size, real controls.
You just don’t move the controls of a real helicopter in the way that you can move them in the sim with a gamepad. It’s not physically possible to move them that quickly as it is. I personally would not fly with anyone who wanted to attempt the testing you are suggesting to do in a real helicopter. Part of the problem of having sims exist in the gaming world is that users may associate the possibilities of what a sim can do, with what is possible in a real aircraft. Don’t even get me started on videos from players like ArmaPilot or SuperSilva_
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If you browse this thread you will see this conversation circle around several times, and each time hitting the same misunderstandings. This is true of me and true of people responding to my concerns specifically AND ONLY about the 407.
As for helicopters IN GENERAL. I think MSFS does a fine job modeling them with moderate accuracy. Like some others here, I fly helicopters and planes in real life and in the sim. So I can judge for myself where the sim falls short. It’s not bad. Autorotations, RPM decay, Ground effect, lift differences over different surfaces; THESE are areas where the sim can improve. But they are edge cases and not fundamental to enjoying a minimally realistic helicopter experience.
My use of an MS Elite 2 controller is a choice, and I think it is a good one. MSFS is where I go to relax. My XBOX runs with a big screen in front of a comfy couch. Upstairs I have a very good HOTAS setup and a Quest 3. That’s for DCS and IL2 and, rarely, X-Plane and MSFS. The Elite controller is every bit as accurate as the HOTAS. RC has taught me to fly with my thumbs smoothly, accurately and with only enough throw as the situation requires. Where the controller falls short is in the circular nature of the stick throw. Unlike with my HOTAS, with the controller, full down or full up collective means less than full anti-torque available (I could use the triggers for “rudder” but I don’t. I want the same left-thumb-rudder&collective/right-thumb-cyclic that I use in RC). I promise that I am far from the world’s greatest real or virtual pilot but I’ll happily fly side-by-side in my configuration with anyone with a quality eastern European control setup and I am certain I’ll be able to keep up. Which leads to assists. They are totally unneeded with a controller. Well-practiced thumbs have all the precision that good sim flying requires.
As for the 407, others know otherwise. But for me, I am certain that it is fundamentally wrong. The only reason I come back to this thread time after time, even with so many other quality models to fly, is the 407 is ubiquitous in the real world and it would be nice to have one that flies well again. We had it for a bit in 2020. I miss it. TAOG’s -500C checks all the right buttons though. So if the Nameth 407 makes current players happy then maybe it should stay as it is.
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