[MSFS2024] Bell 407

Official Microsoft Flight Simulator Polls & Feedback
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When you move the cyclic forward the pitch of the retreating blade is increased, increasing lift and drag, so that the tip plane is higher for that blade when it reaches the aft position. The advancing blade pitch is reduced to lower the tip plane path, decreasing the lift and drag, so that the tip plane path is lower at the front. The total lift vector is displaced forward but doesn’t change so the rotor drag also doesn’t change. The horizontal component of the thrust vector is increased, causing the acceleration, but the vertical component is reduced. This is where a collective increase is required to maintain level flight and this results in the increased drag/torque. With no collective input the aircraft would accelerate but descend. Due to this acceleration the total aircraft drag is increased but that’s not what’s being discussed here.

As I mentioned above, flight control systems usually have some form of control mixing to accomplish this adjustment with minimal pilot input. This can be mechanical linkages, fly by wire programming or hydro-mechanical, referred to as a mixing unit.

2 Likes
105

Let’s not get too complicated about this. Because honestly I don’t think MSFS’ flight dynamics are looking at individual blades as they flap, feather and lag about the disk. In my stable hover scenario above I am NOT adding collective to correct for loss of lift as I stir the cyclic. Therefore there should be no significant torque changes. I mean, sure, maybe 1% here and there to correct for any RPM losses but nothing close to the magnitude experienced in the MSFS 407. Just try it. Lift to a high hover. Lock your feet to the position that has been holding heading. Now push and pull the cyclic multiple times. If you are afraid of mast-bumping, well, 1) it’s a game and 2) Study how mast-bumping works (hint: it needs low g). I can achieve yaw rates of 180+º/second by doing this.

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I’m not trying to explain the behaviour you’re seeing in the sim. This is just a side discussion about real world flight control and rotor dynamics.

I have no explanation why some users sim experiences are different but, judging by many and varied discussions, this is a common theme through the sim. Must make it impossible for MS/Asobo to make changes when they don’t seem to affect all users the same.

1 Like
107

FYI - new mod for the Bell 407 in Flightsim.to. Trying it now.

https://flightsim.to/file/96073/bell-407-chab-mod

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Tried it the other day, enjoying it so far

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I just downloaded it earlier today. I’ll post a video after I’ve had a bit of time with it.

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110

Just downloaded it and tried it. Im on PC, in 2020 and have high quality collective and cyclic.
My very first impressions are this…
Collective full up, I cannot over-torque it at any point.
On the ground, collective fully down, the cyclic makes the aircraft very jittery if I’m a little aggressive with the stick. I know it would be in a real heli but no other MSFS heli reacts like that with no collective applied.
After a few short flights, I can only sum up the flight model by saying that it is a little unpredictable at times, reacting in ways I have not come to expect of others.
Near the ground, hovering close to ground effect, i could leave the collective set and the aircraft would rise a few feet then descend, seeming to have a good ground effect cushion which slowed the rate of descent which was good, but the craft then went up and down in a fairly aggresive and rapid cycle which didn’t feel very natural.
Now compare with the (amazing) Simfocus mod… this seems to make the balance ball work far better than the basic sim (or this new mod)
You certainly can over-torque the aircraft.
Handling is enjoyably relaxed (especially at speed once the rear stabilisers have helped out) yet suitably challenging in the hover. I always thought they really nailed this mod early on.
Although I have flown real helicopters, I have years of experience of sims so my views above are relative to other aircraft and what I have come to expect, more than real flight.

3 Likes
111

Hopefully we’ll get an update from SimFocus for 2024, as they intimated.

1 Like
112

Has the inability to start the 407 from cold and dark been rectified, or is it just me?

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Can you not be started from cold and dark either then? I at least have to have a coffe first :laughing:
I can only speak for 2020 (SimFocus mod) and the 407 starts cold and dark OK.
Not sure about 2024 as I rarely go near that beast.

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The only way to start cold and dark is to shut it down and make it cold and dark.

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Here’s a good explanation on the SimFocus vs Chab Mods for the Bell 407 from the developer of the Chab Mod - which has already had an update. Much more tweaking than the SimFocus approach:

”**You’re right, the two mods are not compatible because they both change the same core files of the Bell 407 (flight_model, engines, etc.).

The main difference is the approach:

SimFocus mod focuses on adding an autopilot and stability tweaks, making the 407 easier to handle and more “accessible” for a larger number of simmers.

My Chab Mod goes in another direction: it tries to stay as close as possible to the real Bell 407 POH values (engine limits, torque, N1, fuel system behavior, cyclic/pedal sensitivity). It’s a bit more “raw” and closer to what a pilot would expect, maybe less forgiving than the SimFocus version. But as like SimFocus, I’m workind on a SAS and autopilot, il will be available for the next uodate

About my personal feedback on SimFocus: it’s a great project and the dev has done solid work. If you prefer a more stable and easy-to-fly helicopter with AP, it’s a very good option. If you want something more manual, closer to the “real feel”, then my mod is probably more in line.

In short → both are valuable, just with different philosophies. It really depends on what you’re looking for! :slightly_smiling_face:

To be honest, the Chab Mod is still very recent and will therefore receive frequent updates. SimFocus has been around for longer, so it’s more complete in certain areas. At the moment, I’m still developing the engine performance tuning (based on the real POH values), the flight dynamics (via the flight model): cyclic, pedals and collective response), the stability/SAS behavior, and the fuel system logic. These are the key areas where the Chab Mod will continue to evolve.**"

I’ve used both - the Chab Mod IMHO provides a more realistic feel in my setup but still playing with it. Interesting project for those that like the 407.

1 Like
116

I’ve been able to start cold and dark in 24 with no issues with the mod from flightsim.to

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Hi, I don’t have 2024 yet, maybe sometime in the distant future.

I seldom fly the 407 as I prefer Toag’s Huey and the MD500, which are great fun!

2 Likes
118

A follow up.

Tried a cold and dark startup (2020) and worked, first time in many months. There was a strange decrease in turbine windup sound from 25% to 40% NR, then it returned and continued to normal takeoff RPM.

Minor detail for sure. Just thought I’d mention it.

1 Like
119

The simfocus mod has an autopilot? I didn’t know this.

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Mod only for 2020 though….

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I didn’t know this either…

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I don´t know if it is the actual SU4 beta, but its behaviour has been improved at the level of the FS20 407 or maybe better, and without any help on, maybe is the better now in FS24 in flight model in its category. I have tested again also after the 125 and the R66 and they haven´t changed like the 407 now, those still are very “nervous” and savage haha, but is enjoyable also tame them haha, hope they solve it like now the 407 ofc

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@JGL574VRG2 Did you notice if the version number changed?

Since Taog’s Hangar seems to be an official partner now, my hope is they will give the neglected helicopters some love and fixes. The 407 would be right up their alley I guess. It’s pure speculation we’ll find out pretty soon if my wish becomes true