P51 bad flight modeling

I may be weird, but I really like the P51 flight model. I’ve found putting the rudder trim back to the center makes is a good idea for takeoff. No idea why it spawns with it hard to the right.
It has adverse yaw more realistically modelled than any of the other planes in the sim.
I’ve had my first engine failure in the sim with it. I’ve always had failures set to on, but never had a failure.
Powerful tail traggers just take getting used to. I fly in VR and I find it really helps to look out to the side during takeoff.

I found that the front of the Lady B is too heavy. 3 point landing is now possible by moving the center of gravity backward before pressing the Fly button.

No offense, but please learn to fly a tail dragger before you criticize the flight model.
Your rudder reaction is way too slow and too violent.

What you demonstrate in this video is a typical PIO caused by a ham-fisted pilot.

5 Likes

PIO=Pilot induced oscillations

Is that correct?

Sorry I am a medical person, which means something totally different. So many acronym, sorry for my ignorance.

However the OP has had advice from real pilots, which stands for something. Whether he takes the advice or ignores it…Just hope I am not the passenger :wink:

2 Likes

First, the model has definitely had a tweak and it is slightly better, at least the rudder control is.

Second, you obviously didn’t watch my NO FLAP takeoff where I controlled the rudder without any major issues. That’s why I posted it, because people like you would just assume I can’t fly a tail dragger.

Third, have you looked at anything else that was mentioned that makes this a bad flight model? Obviously not. One for example is retracting and extending flaps, it doesn’t react correctly. And there are more.

This is not an issue of P factor, torque, spiraling slipstream or gyroscopic precession. This is a bad flight model and I hope they fix it.

1 Like

As long as you are able to keep it on the runway at all from zero speed with full power (flaps or not) the flight model is wrong. The real P51 just takes a hard left and flips belly up doing that.

2 Likes

I did 40” and 3,000rpm which is supposed to be real world takeoff engine settings. I also did 100% power settings as well.

No difference that I can tell. Obviously there should be a HUGE difference there.

The difference that I can really tell is with flaps and no flaps. And that should really have no impact on the 4 left turning tendencies. Maybe a little bit on spiraling slipstream. But 0% on the other three.

But again, it is not just takeoff. It is all aspects of flight. Everyone wants to focus on the taildragger aspect, but it’s climb out, cruise and approach in addition to takeoff and landing.

I just want them to work on it, this is a paid aircraft not a free one.

2 Likes

Pretty good instructions here, not all applies to Reno P51 as it is modified: P51

TAKE OFF for now:
Be sure you facing into the wind.
Fuel in wing tanks only. This will help you for now. * see Enter Cockpit- “J”
Set trims.
**Don’t use flaps.
Slowly increase speed. “Use the runway, no rush to get airborne.”
Keep back stick and stay on the rudder gently, don’t over correct at all.
Gain speed and keep some back stick( let the tailwheel help you steer)
Then let it lift off on all 3, nice and shallow, increasing throttle slowly as it does this.
You shouldn’t need to go over 40-42Hg at this time. Don’t firewall it in other words.
Fly it out, remaining shallow until your airspeed is picking up, increasing throttle slowly now.
When your stable climb and gaining speed, after about 1-2 minutes:
*Lower your prop rpm to 2600rpm at least…Don’t Forget or you’ll be flying deadstick fairly soon.
Adjust your trims as required.

After awhile, you’ll get used to it. Then start on your tail up take offs.

Trimming:
If your changing speed and/or alt often: *Trim" is your hands and both feet.
Get use to it!
Yes you could trim out if you plan to fly steady for a long while, but otherwise, you’ll be trimming more than flying.

Taxiing:
Not completely sure if it’s modeled correctly or maybe the “sweet spots” in the stick areas are too tight. It seems to work sometimes, but I haven’t dug through the config files yet…

notes:
*Fuselage tank caused a lot of t/o problems IRL too.
GoodBye Mickey Mouse
Good read and some great flying experiences written about.

It still needs work overall, but not a bad start for a default specialty ac.

Spend time on T-6, it’s actually pretty sweet and easy to fly.

EDIT: I think maybe…The tailwheel unlock is reversed? Stick forward should unlock and stick rear should lock.

2 Likes

I keep wondering why anyone would use flaps on takeoff with a P-51???

That is correct.

Taildragging P-51 taking off was not docile by today’s tricycle standards.

Watched your video. Looks like poor flying technique. If field length is not a problem, I would look at toning down overcontrol, power application smoothness and work to get the nose down.

2 Likes

They didn’t call the F4U the Ensign Eliminator because it was easy to handle on the ground, but with proper trim and throttle control was easier to get off the ground than the P-51.

Corsair carrier evaluation - Feb 1944

As with all the late war aircraft, power was excessive. I have had the honor of flying both the Corsair and the Avenger. (The Avenger was a 2500 mile ferry flight in an unrestored but flyable aircraft destined to become a duster. Another story for another time)

I have never flown the P-51 but know a couple pilots that have. In comparing notes I would have to place the Avenger as the most forgiving on take-off. The Corsair, although almost impossible to taxi safely, handled quite nicely on takeoff as long as you didn’t apply too much throttle. Between the massive Hamilton 3 blade prop and the horse power, aggressive throttle would ruin your day in a hurry.

Those that drove the P-51 tell me that much like the Corsair, both aileron and rudder trim was required to have any hope of not losing control on takeoff roll. Not only the p-factor and slipstream but also precession as the tail comes up all require massive and careful rudder application. As with most of the warbirds inertia was the big killer. Once that tail starts to swing, it is too late. Any tendency to turn must be arrested BEFORE it begins.

I had a few heartstoppers with the Corsair, just taxiing with a bit of breeze. Once the tail starts to swing the only out was to hammer the rudder and brake while chopping the power. Take a breath and start over. On takeoff, save the desire to firewall the throttle for once you are airborne and engaging the enemy. There is absolutely NO need for significant power unless trying to get off the Hornet with no wind. Easy does it

Until they have experienced the mind shattering power and the tremendous flywheel effect that those massive propellers have, there is no way to prepare a new pilot. Hence the “Ensign Eliminator”.

5 Likes

It is another time. I am ready for this story now. :popcorn:

6 Likes

Actually, hanging the flaps out hugely disrupts the airflow over the tail. Not only does this result in reduced rudder effectiveness but also quickly reduces the effective weight on the wheels. DO NOT use flaps on any high power low wing taildragger. (Except rare events like trying to get an overloaded Mitchell off a shortened carrier deck.)

3 Likes

The more I reminisce on this forum, the more I think about writing a book. Sadly much of the fun stuff still can’t be told.

3 Likes

As mentioned before, don’t use flaps for take-off.
In addition, the flaps on the P-51 induce significant downwash. This pitches the nose down. When raising the flaps the downwash and drag are significantly reduced resulting in a pitch up and immediate acceleration. What you are describing is a pretty good flight model.

Tailwheel:

Maybe this needs a bug report!
Edit: zen tick 137284

There is a lot of incorrect info about this online( go figure ) but:

-The tailwheel is locked when the stick is slightly aft of neutral to full aft and allows up to 6 degrees movement controlled by rudder.

-Stick forward unlocks tailwheel, for tighter turns.

*This is not the case with the Reno 51’s.
Pulling back unlocks tailwheel, adding to take off roll control issue.

Easy to notice once you realize it.

While there are a lot of issues with SU7, major crashing problems on the Xbox series X, they did do a good job on this expansion. I disagree that it is just four aircraft with different liveries. Each aircraft has its own custom cockpit modeled after the real aircraft. While I’m confident the FM does need some tweaking, give credit where credit is due. The Asobo team didn’t just mail it in when it comes to releasing these aircraft. They clearly put in some time and effort to make easy aircraft unique.

3 Likes

Thanks, I appreciate the helpful post. Was thinking this thread was going nowhere.

Why? Because Asobo said so. If you spawn the aircraft on the runway ready to go, guess what flaps are at the second setting. If you look at the checklist from the in game cockpit, guess what it says to set flaps to 20 degrees.

Post like yours and the guy that said learn to fly a taildragger don’t help anyone. Additionally I don’t think you own this aircraft and have never flown it in game or you would already know that takeoff flaps default to flaps 2. Or you just don’t want to help anyway and just trying to troll.

Do it… Or maybe a series of videos?