The community fixes for aircraft are amazing, but is it right that they're needed?

I’d have to agree with what the OP says. There shouldn’t be a need for community ‘fixes’ for stock aircraft. At least, not for core functionality to the degree that has proven necessary. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an entertainment-grade aircraft simulator (civilian or military) that didn’t have initial issues concerning such content, particularly when first released, but some of the bugs and missing features that have had to be addressed here clearly shouldn’t have been left to third parties to fix. When they even can be: some things simply can’t be fixed without changes to core code not accessible to outsiders.

In part, this is a reflection of the way the entertainment software market in general currently operates - content is released early, with the expectation that consumers will accept it as it is, and the expectation (or at least, the implication) that it will be fixed later. In the case of MSFS, I think its fair to say that the product was self-evidently released in an unfinished state, and arguably in a worse state than is even the norm for the industry. As to why this occurred, and who was responsible for the decision, I’d assume, lacking evidence to the contrary, that the decision was more likely Microsoft’s than Asobo’s.

Having said that, I would have to also suggest that the willingness for consumers to accept unfinished products - and even their incessant demands to get ‘early access’ - are also part of the problem. There was a time, back when internet access was less universal, and software was distributed on physical media, that developers had little choice but to ‘finish’ a product before it was released. You got what was on the cassette/disk/DVD and if it was bugged or lacking you lived with it. And the developers took the consequences for bad releases in lost sales, and lost reputation. In some ways the developer/customer relationship was much more ‘honest’ then.

I suppose that I’m as much a part of the problem here as anyone else. I bought the sim, despite being aware enough that it wasn’t yet in the sort of state it should have been. I wasn’t an alpha tester, and nor was I privy to what was being said on the private forums, but it was fairly obvious that testers were surprised when the release was announced, and were largely of the opinion that it needed much further work. I made my choice though, knowing this, and while I’ve been as frustrated by some of the issues as others, I’ve managed to get a couple of months’ entertainment out of it so far, and expect this to continue. I also expect Asobo to continue addressing the issues of core functionality that are clearly required, and will be extremely disappointed if they don’t. And meanwhile, I’ll extend my thanks to the modder teams that have put in so much work, rectifying things they probably shouldn’t have to. The willingness for people to chip in, and to look towards extending MSFS way beyond the initial product, is one of the reasons I have confidence in its long-term prospects. Things could have gone a whole lot better, but the situation is far from hopeless.

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Really? I must have missed that memo. I can’t find any mention in my pre-order anywhere stating that. Does that mean that anything released in the Premium Deluxe “Upgrade” versions is this better stuff? If it is, then why is it suffering from the same issues as the base content?

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The reality is, of the things you list, almost all did exist in earlier versions.
The earlier versions of Flight Sim from FS98 up to FSX were reknown for “porpoising” as it was called then.
Turboprop logic is still not right on default FSX based planes.
Ground resistance, in terms of initial roll, is much better in MSFS than FSX ever was.
My disappointment is that altough a lot of this was eventually worked out of the FSX line of sims,
here they are back again, as bad if not worse than I remember.
In a lot of instances MSFS shows its Flight Sim heritage, but I still like MSFS better than any sim I’ve seen.

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The thing is, that you have individuals on the mod teams who appear to have far more in-depth understanding of how various avionics systems and flight models should work than anyone at Asobo. This is probably not so much a matter of “incompetence” as it is lack of experience.

Although Asobo has been a game developer for a long time, MSFS is their first foray into flight simulation. If they started developing the game 5 years ago, that would mean that prior to that time, nobody at Asobo would have known anything about aviation or aircraft.

Compare that to someone like Rob Young, who developed the outstanding turbo mod for the default G36 Bonanza. He has over 20 years of experience creating aircraft for flight simulation, and it shows based on how much better his mod is than the default.

Yes, it would be nice to have default aircraft that are “right” from the very beginning, but because of the lack of experience at Asobo, and all the other issues they have to address, if we were to wait for them to fix the default airplanes, it would take many months to get the same fixes that the mod teams are creating in a matter of days.

Frankly, if Asobo is smart, they would contract with the leading mod developers to do the fixes for the default aircraft, incorporate those fixes into future updates, and fairly compensate them for their work, just as they would do for any other contractor.

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When i first saw all the ‘INOP’ buttons all over the place i got happy. Because they have made the interface ready for MOD’ers to exploit.

I understand asobo’s intention to build a kind of ‘empty’ sim and let the community take it from there.

“Out of the box” i rather have a full functioning SIM with minimal functions than a half baked SIM with gamestoppers like not working or buggy implementations.

I am sure the sim will get the love it needs from the community it just takes some time.

I don’t think that is there intention at all, it’s more that there is so much to build, and implement.

I look at it as one of those painting by numbers pictures. You can see what it’s meant to be, and patch by patch more of it gets coloured in. Some users opt to assist, and start painting as well. Eventually, probably through a non-official collaborative effect, we get a complete picture.

But it’s a big picture. :slight_smile:

You never used FSX, did you?

Seven7Tango Yes, I did. It had issues too. I don’t however think that having released software in an immature state before can really be a justification for doing it again. But whatever. People have different opinions, clearly. I’m stating mine.

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Many of the arguments supporting this state of affairs are blown apart by the fact this sim is going to be on console. Microsoft won’t be able to rely on the community so much there unless they bring the fix mods onto the official MSFS store.

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Why do you think we have an in sim marketplace?

The in sim marketplace is right now only for paid add-ons, not for fixes to the default aircraft.

People on XBox won’t be able to use when Working Title G1000, WT CJ4, or Robert’s awesome Bonanza Turbo. They will be stuck with the stock sim aircraft and avionics.

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The nature of a console is no unsanctioned mods, so we will be limited to what MS/Asobo allows through their marketplace.

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This product is serving (or will serve) a bifurcated market.

At gut level, I don’t expect XBox users to be hard-core flight simmers. There’s just no way that a Gamepad Controller gives any sense of proper ergonomics that closely emulates actual flight controls. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Am I categorizing XBox sweepingly? Sure. But I suspect most folks who will fly it on XBox are there for a - yes, wait for it - Microsoft Flight experience. They’re there for the movement and the scenery. Do you really think you’d sit there and try to program a Direct To on a controller, or reprogram a transponder or COM channel? Some might, I strongly suspect most won’t or care.

If there is indeed compromises made, either at a software design level, or even now, with allocation of likely scarce resources and time, that’s going to Xbox, then yes, I would be just as concerned as the OP is.

I wouldn’t put it past the publisher (who’s had collectively decades of experience with this product family and the sustainment factors behind it, including third-party metrics) to have consciously or otherwise - come to the judgement point that “Hey, it it doesn’t work out of the box, the community will fix it.” I’m sure Asobo, as a reputable software dev, would not have wanted their product released in such a state. But they’re not the ones holding the budget pursestrings, the content delivery channels, the PR marketing, ad nauseum. Will you find that smoking gun anywhere? Unlikely, but hey it’s 2020 and an Internet connected world, the year ain’t over yet. We might still be surprised.

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Consoles have their limitations, but the Xbox has compatible yokes and HoTaS already, and will run keyboards.

There is a large, weird sim driving community on consoles… and well, consoles have lacked a good flying sim forever.

It is a market with room to grow. Also, most Xbox owners have Game Pass, so MSFS will be installed on a LOT of consoles, even if only for a few flights.

P.C. is still the prime place for sims, but I am not ready to underestimate MSFS for console, since it was built from the ground up with the new Xbox in mind.

That is fascinating - about the sim driving, but I get the synergy on that. Good point.

I always saw the jump from sim driving to other types of vehicle sims to be very niche (i.e., it’s a whole bunch of racers). But I get it, if it works on XBox, someone will buy it.

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Sim driving on a 4K TV is brilliant, because you can get a wonderful FOV and feel like you are in the car.

Console simmers spend a ton of money on their rigs… they just don’t need a PC.

I work in sound, so I cannot wait for the Xbox release of MSFS, so I can let my studio rig just do studio stuff again. I don’t have the room for a rudder and pedals in my studio, and it would ruin my sound… so for now, I fly on P.C. with an Xbox controller… and when it comes out on Xbox, I will get a Honeycomb. :joy:

Yes and no.

No in the sense that community mods / improvements are a core part of all of the flight simulators that have been successful.

Yes in the sense that the game advertised as “release ready” and not “early access” sucks so much, with so many core simulation breaking issues.

100% this. It’s great that we already have some fantastic mods available (e.g. a32nx) but really they ought to be enhancing/expanding the experience rather than fixing basic issues. I have a lot of sympathy for Asobo as this is no doubt a complex project but I was left scratching my head when the changelist for a recent patch included a bug listed (the VFR map). Very odd. I do wonder how the helicopter DLC is going to go down when it is released whenever that may be…

It’s still early days, so fingers crossed in the long run all of these issues are ironed out and the modders can concentrate on adding, rather than fixing, stuff.

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Sorry, nothing in a computer flight sim “game” is “study level” Not even PMDG.
More realistic yes! I think the term study level implies an expectation of transferring ones flight simming to a real aircraft. This is simply far from accurate.
I an aircraft has every button, switch & dial working exactly to a real aircraft it might be study level.
Nothing I’ve ever used even in P3D or XP11 rates as study level.

The exepectation of “study level” for people that don’t know what people infer it to mean is certainly incorrect.

It’s a SIMULTOR – but nobody has specified that any MS Flight Simulator needs to simulate EVERYTHING,.

Nor does it need to be to be a “study aircraft sim” for any particular aircraft, for any specific part of the aircraft systems. ( whater you may mean by “Study aircraft” etc etc

Before you start talking about if MSFS is a “Study Tool”, you need to define better what is required for any particular “Study Tool”

Even your Multi Million dollar “Commercial Flight Simulators” are not perfect, nor are they 100% perfect “Study Tools” – depending on how you specify what the study tool should be.

Instead of knocking MSFS for what it isn’t, appreciate it for what it is.

For example, the PMDG planes are not 100% “Correct”, but given the limitations of the Sim they are operating in, they go a very long way towards “simulating” most of the aircraft functions, with a reasonable degree of accuracy, for a few 10’s of Dollars.

You want better … then cough up $50 Million for custom commercial Simulator software and then whatever for a Commercial Sim to run it on … and then (no offence) it would be Totally Wasted on 99.99999% of the population

You want SIM perfection – start buying Lottery Tickets to get that $500 Million you will need.

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