VR, immersion, charts, VATSIM, etc

So I saw another thread asking about this, and a few options have been posted - I’ve been planning to do a writeup or maybe even a video with what I’ve figured out. I’m not ready yet BUT wanted to get this out there now since it seems to be becoming a popular topic.

If you’re like me, and really ONLY want to fly in VR, but also want to try to do it somewhat realistically - follow the correct charts and procedures, have runway/taxiway maps available, use VATSIM (and thus be able to take notes, etc.) it’s pretty damned hard (if not impossible.)

Disclosure - I have a healthy rig. Your mileage may vary. I’m on a Reverb G2 headset, an i7-10700k computer w/32GB of RAM, and a 3090 Founders Edition GPU. You may need to tweak some things a little to get the performance I’m getting.

First off - VR does allow you to import 2D windows into your 3D space - YES, even in FS2020.

The easiest way to do this… is if you have a WMR device (like a Reverb, an Odyssey, etc.). It’s actually a built in function called “App Slates”. It’s also possible with SteamVR, when you pair it with some add-ons.

The WMR route:

  1. You need to be IN FS2020 and in VR mode already. (Prior to what I’ve seen said in other threads, my experience has been that windows opened in Cliff House will NOT carry over to FS.)

  2. Pick up your VR controller and press the “Windows” button. A menu will pop up. Select “All Apps” and find the app you wish to open (search the “Classic Apps” folder too) and use the trigger to select it.

  3. If you are lucky - the app will appear in a 2D window, floating in front of you. Use the VR controller to resize and position the window. I’ve had the best results selecting the “Follow Me” icon (the icon to the left of the “X” that closes the window) to position it so that it’s aimed at me. Then, once positioned, I turn off “Follow Me”.

  4. To interact with the app, you will need to use your VR controller. Point it at the things you’d click on with a mouse to interact.

NOW - I’ve had mixed success with this. It seems SOME apps work, SOME insist on opening only on the desktop. And even more fun - SOME apps work once, but won’t work again until you reboot. (WTF Microsoft??). It’s trial-and-error.

The best part about this method however - I have not seen any appreciable difference in VR performance while doing this.

The SteamVR route - Option A (Crew Chief):

  1. (If you are not a WMR user skip to step 3) You can do this EVEN IF you have a WMR headset. You will need to switch the OpenXR runtime to use SteamVR. Thankfully, you don’t need to do registry edits - go into your SteamVR settings, under “Developer” and there is an option to “Change OpenXR runtime to use SteamVR.” Select that.

  2. To get “close” to WMR performance, once you’ve done step 1 above, open FS2020, go into VR mode, then take your headset off and go to your SteamVR settings. Under Video should be a button for “Application specific” settings. Click through those options and set the render scaling here to at least (if not a tick lower) whatever setting you have set for the view scaling in the OpenXR toolkit (if you’re not sure what that is - search this forum, should be plenty of explanations on using OpenXR with WMR.). On my machine I have both (OpenXR and SteamVR) set to 70% for FS2020.

  3. This will sound a little unorthodox, but I’ve had solid luck using an app called “Crew Chief.” This is an app used for racing simulators (pretty cool add-on app if you’re into stuff like iRacing, etc.). Bear with me - even if you don’t do any racing, download it here, it’s free: http://thecrewchief.org

  4. Crew Chief has a built-in “SteamVR Overlay” option that I discovered by accident. This lets you do something very similar to the WMR steps above - you can pick any selection of open windows (or an entire desktop) and bring it into a 2D window within any SteamVR space (including FS2020.). The use is pretty straightforward. Make sure SteamVR is running, then the button will be clickable.

  5. Once you open the “SteamVR Overlay” panel, put your headset on. The panel SHOULD be visible (if it’s not right in front of you, look around, it should be there, floating somewhere). Use the sliders on the panel to change the position, size, etc. of the window. Note that you can select, from the list, which windows you want brought over - with the same sliders, etc.

Downside to this: If you’re a WMR user, the performance isn’t as good due to SteamVR. Window positioning is a little bit “crude” by comparison to Option B below.

Another downside: Crew Chief seems to simply identify the dimensions of your open app window on the desktop - and then it just brings in a cropped version of your desktop into VR. So if, once you’ve opened a window - the app itself physically moves? It will only partially (or not at all!) show in your VR window. Same goes if a window opens on top of the one you wanted opened. You see a cropped version of the desktop.

Upside: no noticeable performance impact running the Crew Chief overlays above the impact to switching to SteamVR from WMR. Those of you who run a native SteamVR headset (Index, etc.) would likely see little/no performance impact, I bet!

Another upside: Crew Chief seems to simply identify the dimensions of your open app window on the desktop - and then it just brings in a cropped version of your desktop into VR. So when you want to interact with the app youv’e opened - you just use your mouse.

Tips: I put the apps I want to run on my 2nd monitor (which happens to be on my left) and maximize them with split screen (click the app, then Windows + Left Arrow or Windows + Right Arrow). When I want to use the app, I ALT-TAB (NOT CONTROL-TAB!) while in FS2020 which kicks the mouse cursor to desktop, zip my mouse far left and then I can see the mouse in the app window. Use app like normal. When I need to interact with FS2020, I simply zip my mouse all the way back to the right (where my FS2020 window is) and click.

The SteamVR route - Option B (OVR Toolkit):

  1. (If you are not a WMR user skip to step 3) You can do this EVEN IF you have a WMR headset. You will need to switch the OpenXR runtime to use SteamVR. Thankfully, you don’t need to do registry edits - go into your SteamVR settings, under “Developer” and there is an option to “Change OpenXR runtime to use SteamVR.” Select that.

  2. To get “close” to WMR performance, once you’ve done step 1 above, open FS2020, go into VR mode, then take your headset off and go to your SteamVR settings. Under Video should be a button for “Application specific” settings. Click through those options and set the render scaling here to at least (if not a tick lower) whatever setting you have set for the view scaling in the OpenXR toolkit (if you’re not sure what that is - search this forum, should be plenty of explanations on using OpenXR with WMR.). On my machine I have both (OpenXR and SteamVR) set to 70% for FS2020.

  3. Purchase the software tool called “OVR Toolkit” from the Steam Store. I think it’s 15 bucks?

  4. Follow the usage guide here for how to use OVR Toolkit (I don’t want to retype what’s been typed a lot already, as OVRT is in wide use.). Steam Community :: Guide :: Tutorial from program

Downside to this: Performance hit. Noticeable. Also: to interact with the apps you have open in the window, you need to use the VR controller (much like the WMR solution above.).

Also note that on my machine, while I run the in-game SS/TAA at 100% for the first two options (with OpenXR / SteamVR set to 70% as described in #2 above) - when I want to run OVR Toolkit I need to also turn the in-game SS/TAA down to 60-70%… and the performance STILL isn’t as good as the WMR native.

Upside: Slick interface. Very easy (with, or without, VR controllers) to position and size windows EXACTLY where you want them. Big community, lots of support out there. Kind of the norm or “standard” for doing what we’re trying to do.

So - what can you use this for? VATSIM. Navigraph. METARs. Whatever you might want in your VR space. I’ll set my first reply to this thread with some detail of how I’ve been using it so far.

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Ok… so… I’ve been experimenting with this for a few weeks now, trying to find the best way to do it. My latest rendition is, I think, the best way yet.

As said in the OP - I’m on a WMR device (a G2.). So far I’ve had the best luck/usability by using the SteamVR + Crew Chief option described above. With it, I am doing the following:

  1. Navigraph software, opened on my Windows machine and maximized to 50% of my left monitor.
  2. iPad mirroring software. I’d suggest AirServer or X-Mirage. Both are payware but they’re only ~$15 or so. Additional thoughts below. I have this maximized to the other 50% of my left monitor.
  3. VATSIM software (I use vPilot). I simply squish the window as small is it will let me and place it hovering over my iPad mirroring window, towards the bottom of the screen.

With Crew Chief…

I position the Navigraph window as if it were mounted via suction cup to my left - the pillar, side window/windshield, etc. I’ve seen plenty of IRL pilots (including personal friends) do this and it seems a natural place to put it. If I need to interact with it? ALT-TAB while in FS2020 (note NOT control-tab!) to “free” the mouse from FS2020. As I know the Navigraph window is ALLLLL the way left, I simply keep moving my mouse left until the mouse appears over the Navigraph window.

My iPad screen mirror I have positioned down low and turned to an angle - such that it matches, approximately, the position it’s resting while on my leg. I have the “auto lock” disabled, and usually have it open to Notes (or Microsoft Whiteboard) which I use to write on with my Apple Pencil. I spent some time getting the positioning right to where, while I can’t “see” my hand, the positioning is close enough that I’ve had good success using the iPad while remaining solely in VR. And worst case: I can peek through the nose piece on the VR if my hand gets lost.

I like the default Apple Notes app because it doesn’t seem to interpret my palm resting on the iPad as I handwrite. But I like the Microsoft Whiteboard app because it lets me paste in pictures, where I can write on it. I have a sort of VATSIM “script” with blanks for info that help me get the terminology/phraseology correct and when ATC reads back, I have spots to write in all the information they give me. It’s just kind of a pain because it interprets my hand as input sometimes and I wind up panning/scaling the screen.

Lastly, with the VATSIM vPilot app open - I can see local controller frequencies, etc. :).

Now - specific opinions on iPad mirroring: I’ve probably tried a half dozen and have found 2 I like. X-Mirage, and AirServer. X-Mirage is fast (almost instant mirror) and clear/high resolution. Downside: it does NOT seem to play with WMR App Slates at ALL.

AirServer DOES work with App Slates, is also clear and nice resolution. They are also open to my feedback on how I’m using it and have already patched one bug I found (if you download this today, for it to work right you need to set your desktop “scaling” to 150%… this fix is coming soon.). But another bug I’ve found with AirServer is that there is a delay on the display. After it runs a few minutes from within an App Slate, your inputs on the iPad appear on the AirServer mirror 30+ seconds later. Not ideal when taking notes, etc.

I’m trying to put a video together with some screenshots for how I’m doing it but running into technical difficulties getting my screen capture program to actually capture the right windows. Will post here or edit this post as I get them done.

Hopefully this helps. I’m continuing to figure out the best way to make this stuff work for VR.

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I’m also gonna ask that you vote for this feature: Support for WMR "App Slates"

This really only applies to WMR users though I would imagine with some work they could make it work for everybody as a basic VR function?

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Had a few minutes so I experimented a bit. I had to jack up some things to make the recording option work (ugh… ShadowPlay limitations) but you get an idea of what I’m doing.

One screenshot is just of my “secondary” monitor, which is full-screen-split between Navigraph and X-Mirage.

The other three are just randoms of me looking around so you can see how I have things positioned. I took video too but I will need to mess with it / clean it up before I post it somewhere.

The blurriness of these screenshots is the fault of the WMR preview window. It’s crystal clear and 100% readable when I’m inside the headset.

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My experience so far with Reverb G2:

Instead of bringing the individual applications (never worked for me, they often quit mid-flight with some weird message about “immersive application stopped”), I bring to VR cockpit the entire desktop. WMR has limitations when it comes to scaling the desktop window in VR, so to make it smaller and better fitting into my C172 cockpit - pretending to be a large kneeboard - I changed my desktop resolution to ca. 1280x720, this allows making the desktop window in VR smaller, with the content (letters etc.) bigger, real game changer for me, as the desktop in VR in no longer gigantic.

I can bring the desktop to VR with the “follow me” option set in the WMR cliff house, no matter if the sim is running or not. In the sim I place the desktop more or less on my virtual knees and then I disable the “follow me” function with VR controller, still working in the cockpit (if the desktop was brought to cockpit with the “follow me” function), but only able to control the desktop, not the sim cockpit…

The apps I use:

  • my favourite real-world VFR nav app - Skydemon (left side of the desktop),
  • any PDF viewer to show the checklist and any charts (top right side of the desktop),
  • OneNote to make notes (frequencies, ATC clearances, anything) with my Wacom graphics tablet and pen (lower right side of the desktop).

Bringing the entire desktop to VR has additional advantages:

  • I can scale the apps as I wish mid-flight,
  • I can hide the MFS2020 window when I don’t need it or show when I want to place cursor in it (I go out with blind press on the Windows key on the keyboard),
  • I can control my Pilot2ATC app or any other app I like (Spotify?).

The picture below is for illustration only, without the sim ot WMR running (so you can’t see them on the Windows toolbar).

So I’m no longer so much “isolated” in the goggles, it’s like having a tablet on you knee during RW flight - the entire world/Internet at you fingertips. Just remeber to mot spend to much time looking down at the kneeboard/desktop - at least when you fly VFR - look outisde - see/avoid/admire the scenery.
This really helped me to overcome the main VR drawback for me - the isolation. Now it’s much more like RW flying for me, with all the tools, charts, even my tablet/notepad.

What helps is the fact that I have a mini-panel based on the Behringer X-Touch mini, Honeycomb Alpha Yoke and Saitek Throttle, so I don’t need mouse or keyboard to operate the sim (plenty of H/W buttons, switches and knobs for C172). So I can use my mouse, or Wacom touch tablet or even Wacom pen, to controll the apps on my desktop, without the need to pass the mouse control to the sim.

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Great solution too. I played around a little bit with the WMR “import the entire desktop” option when trying to get AirServer working.

The issue I had with it: WMR kept wanting to “refocus” the desktop view to be wherever my mouse happened to be. Ideally I want to interact with knobs and switches while looking at my imported windows. Sounds like you mapped enough buttons that you keep your FS2020 minimized.

If they can find a way to LOCK which desktop to import - it would be a workable option for me.

Ok so I want to do a “walkthrough” sort of video but I took a break (because hot-diggity I’m having fun PLUS opted to bail on work for the afternoon) to take a flight.

Just want to say - this sim is AMAZING looking. I can sit. Here. All. Day. Note there is a LOT of video compression happening here. It’s CRYSTAL CLEAR in the G2.

Hopefully this embed works:

(If not - video is here: FS2020 VR VATSIM experience)

Flight from 3CK (Chicago suburbs, my “home” GA airport) to KPDK (Atlanta area municipal) in the Baron 58. VATSIM ATC, Navigraph. Big storm cutting cross the country today - so was overcast/IMC with snow leaving 3CK, cleared out through Indianapolis before it got thick again down around… Louisville I think. Most of this video shot ~15mi SW of Indy around 5:30pm local time tonight, 7000’.

I applaud your extensive effort and tenacity to get Navigraph into the VR cockpit. I’m holding off on purchasing the subscription until Microsoft, Asobo, and Navigraph get it sorted into a seamless window such as the ATC or Checklist windows that appear at the click of a mouse on the toolbar.

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That would DEFINITELY be awesome. Would love to see native embedding.

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FYI this is in the roadmap for Navigraph, they’ve discussed it a few times.

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That’s great to hear, for Navigraph users like myself. I would 100% be on-board.

Though my solution is a little more open-ended for folks who use other packages.

Im tired of reading these ‘work arounds’ to get charts and the VATSIM window in VR, I really hope that Asobo is working on getting this functionality into the actual game!!

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I dont understand where the iPad mirror software fits in the solution? As I read it you dont actually have any of the apps running on the iPad but all locally.

/Stephen

I have either Microsoft Whiteboard or Apple Notes running on the iPad. With the Apple Pencil it becomes a scratch pad that I can read in VR.

If I run Whiteboard I can actually drag in pictures, etc and write over top of them. In those cases it’s usually a VATSIM ATC script hints document I imported, with big blanks left so I can fill it out as a form for ATC read back.

Otherwise I just use Notes and if ATC calls me up I usually just keep the Pencil in my hand so I can write if needed.

iPad is also handy for having Adobe Acrobat open where I have a PDF of the Baron checklist (the plane I mostly fly) and then both a METAR app and Deep Sky for live weather radar.

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That is pretty smart. A must try…

I m trying to bring the whole desktop to VR (Using wmr/G2) actually wanting to show navigraph charts. So far I can’t get it running, my issue:

In Msfs vr mode I have that follow-me desktop window sitting , So far so good, alt tab to,desktop, maximixe navigraph and alt tab back to msfs : I then see don’t navigraph but the two VR screens that you would normally see when you are flying I vr and look at your normal Monitor.
What am I doing wrong?

Do I need a second monitor for this to get working?
Any help would be kindly appreciated.

Thank you!

If you are using the WMR “Slates” (which I assume you are since you referenced the “follow me” mode) then to interact with the app running in them, you need to use your VR controllers. The alt-tab method I described above is for using SteamVR + CrewChief.

As for displaying the entire desktop using the WMR slate method - I’ve had issues with this, exactly as you describe. Basically it seems to want to auto-focus the contents of the shared desktop to whatever the “main” window is. So when you flip back to FS, it auto-focuses the contents of the app slate to the window you’re clicking on.

I have multiple monitors and tried having the app slate open one desktop while FS was on another and as soon as I clicked on anything outside of the initial desktop, the window would refocus to whatever desktop I clicked on.

Try In Game Apps, it will let you run Littlenavmaps with functionality.

“Try In Game Apps,”
I dont get what you mean… Could you please elaborate? Thx:)

There is a payware app called In Game Panels, It has several panels that are added to the menu in VR. One of them is Littlenavmaps. It’s functional to some extent, but you need to develope your flight plan outside of VR. There’s a METAR panel, enhanced VFR panel, and a couple others. I got it from flightsim.com. Read the instructions, easy to install.

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