Where are the complex aircraft?

Being a long time simmer I’m left wanting with pretty much every aircraft I’ve tried to date (GA pilot). There are some great looking craft out there but the systems and avionics are so severely lacking its not even funny (yes, WT are doing a great job). I would gladly pay £200 for a GA aircraft where everything works as it should with action and consequence as close as can be expected for a home PC.
I wonder if some developers are cautious about investing extra time and effort because the base sim is unstable on almost a monthly basis, or perhaps that not enough time has passed since the sim release to create something so complex. Could this sim even cater for such a craft? At present, to me at least, its eye candy with a few trying to make the absolute best they can with what the sim has to offer. Opening doors and moving coffee cup holders are [to me] as pointless as moving switches that do nothing other than throw up an annunciator light and yet this is now what I feel a lot of the community is passing off as complex aircraft?
I don’t blame developers because the more complex a plane is, the more chance there is that something goes wrong on the next sim update, and to be honest, they’re still selling so where’s the incentive to create a masterpiece. I don’t even blame Microsoft because the whole idea of how we sim has undergone a fundamental change.
Like most people, I have a finite amount of free time and the eye candy novelty has long disappeared. For me at least, I’m done purchasing third party aircraft for now with the hope that this year produces something exceptional to get my interest back into MS2020.

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I think there’s a couple of points. One would be that the vast majority of people who use the sim wouldn’t be able to fly such an craft. And two, some of what you’re talking about (the consequences side) would need the physics to be completely accurate, which may in turn make it next to impossible for more straight forward aircraft models to fly, as it would affect the entire sim for everyone. I can’t think of any such aircraft in FS9, FSX or P3D either.
The best way to experience that level of accuracy is to spend a few hundred pounds on a couple of taster flights from your local flying club. There’s nothing on a computer that come close to flying a real aircraft.

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For me the JF Arrows and Warrior are complex enough. Friend of mine owns a Warrior and was quite impressed by JF’s depiction.
If you want something even more realistic maybe the upcoming A2A Comanche is the thing for you?

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This conversation crops up occasionally on forums and having flown real/ various sims/radio control etc,I consider real aircraft flying to be by far the easiest to do,much more stable.The only more ‘complicated’ aspect is awareness of other aircraft ,gusty winds,and the strong possibility of death should you or the aircraft screw up…

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The JF Arrow is probably my most used plane but even that is occasionally difficult to navigate as the sim randomly loses the ability to tune VORs. VR instrument lighting is also pretty bad but It is a great plane through.

I’m not sure how more accurate physics would make it more difficult for straight forward aircraft to fly?

This conversation does crop up and I think it’s important to keep it out there. To me (I’m no programmer) the sim is taking two steps forward, one step back (sometimes two), but is slowly heading in the right direction. Hot Start managed a pretty good TBM 900 with required maintenance, systems that work and consequence for flying like a muppet what, 4 years ago? So stands to reason that a craft of that level of complexity could eventually exist in MSFS.
There is a place for the Carenado quality planes which are excellent visually (right up there with the best) but lacking on sound, systems and developer after sales care, but then they are priced accordingly. The SWS Kodiak is another good plane but some of the system feedback is off and/or doesn’t work. SWS stated the level of complexity before release and that is priced accordingly. I’m not taking pot shots at developers as no one has claimed to release a high end aircraft.

My question still stands. Where are the higher end complex aircraft where all the systems, switches and buttons work with realistic engine behaviour. Or has the sim not matured enough to allow this yet?

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Yeah I’m done purchasing anything in the market place for now. Little or no quality, the aircraft are too simplistic & non detailed. The only positive aspect about msfs is the satellite ground imagery & weather which is pretty good.

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I was just having this conversation over at SOH. Personally, I don’t have time to program a computer before starting engines. The smaller aircraft like the Kodiak and Twotter seem to do a great job at replicating their respective real counterparts in MSFS. And although the functionality of the Garmin glass systems is still severely lacking, there is enough there with the WT mods to keep the average user happy. And that’s what they’re really going for - the “average user.” Super systems simulation (SSS?) is already available in sims like XP and P3D, along with DCS for the military minded. The streaming scenery system in MSFS is pretty much useless when you’re at FL350, and I believe that’s why GA and bush seem to be so popular here, and that’s why I foresee this platform remaining extremely popular with that crowd.

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Agreed on both counts. There is no other platform that provides weather or visuals like this on a global scale and it is a sim trying to cater for all over two platforms.
I’m not saying all aircraft should have SSS, I thought that was pretty clear. The market has some great payware planes, some freeware that could easily command a fee and a lot of overpriced tat. For the cost, the Kodiak is exceptional…still frustrating that a lot of the systems don’t work but like I said, it’s priced accordingly. There is a gap in the market to create a GA plane where absolutely everything works. I just hope the sim eventually becomes stable enough to give a developer the confidence to start such a project.

Some people around here wouldn’t find it realistic enough…

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Seems to me it was several years between the release of FSX and A2A’s first release. I’m not sure if there were any other companies producing ‘complex GA aircraft’ before them.

This new sim hasn’t even been out a full two years yet and it already has a number of good options if you like whats available.

There’s always one.

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It’s not been two years which is perhaps why there’s nothing on the cards? The sim still isn’t stable enough in my opinion.

A2A are working on their PA-24 for MSFS. Flysimware are also working on a Cessna 414.

I look forward to anything from A2A.

Wrong! You are not like “most” people. It would be wise not to include the millions that are enjoying the sim immensely!! Like me,

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Good for you.

They are coming, it just that there are some things that these big 3rd party devs need in order to create and complete these complex aircraft from Asobo. PMDG has just made an announcement post today as of the 23rd of January regarding their 737 line and that it has finally been “unstuck” and are now planning on moving to the testing phase. This is great news as this means we can expect the aircraft really soon. Hopefully A2A and Quality Wings alongside other great 3rd party devs follow suit and are also having a great workflow to near completion to bring us those great aircrafts.

Here is the link to the PMDG post if you want to reference it.
[23JAN22] A Little Red Cone, with Not Little Significance. - PMDG Simulations

You can’t really say that when all these big 3rd party devs know what is going on in the background with Asobo better than what we know from the outside. If PMDG says this is the future of simming, they are saying it for a reason. You need to keep in mind that Asobo is also handling their own agenda for sim updates and world updates as well as mending to the needs of all the other 3rd party devs. This whole they are going for the “average user” is getting pretty old. Look at the progress of the A32NX FBW, from where it started to where it is at know. A fully functioning hydraulic systems, rewritten AP, the implementation of a fully functional TCAS system and so much more.

They are rebuilding a lot of the tools for the SDK to support WASM and C++ and to take advantage of the updated systems this new sim has. New lighting, new PBR textures support, and so on. It’s going to take them time, X-Plane or P3D never got those complex aircraft right away either, they slowly rolled out to those platforms. Once the complex aircrafts get rolling into MSFS and the updates and performance get better. It will be the turning point.

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Well I’m no software engineer myself but I keep reading from people who are that it takes about two years to develop a SSS so I suppose that, combined with the upcoming releases of several of them, is in part your answer. Yes, it takes time. Yes, it also takes further engineering in the sim itself like with regards to turbo prop logic and eventually they’ll all be learning together.

What I see is a lot of ambition on all sides, regardless of the statements I sometimes read here that border close to conspiracy theories :wink: …they’ll get it done and I think 2022 will be the turning point in many regards. Synergy is about to happen real soon between 3rd party developers and Microsobo. Good news for us as we’re right in the middle of all that synergetic ambition. :flight_departure:

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There is not the slightest problem with the sound in any Carenado plane, and the systems function exactly and realistic as they should be in a steam-gauge plane (what should we expect? Five sub-pages on the altimeter like it was an MFD screen, and an FMC next to the propeller RPM lever?), and Carenado patches everything they are asked for :slight_smile: