World Hub Change Tracking?

Yep. This has been a big concern among World Hub developers. Some of us have shifted airports back onto their aerials, which is a painstaking process. The concern is that if the next aerial is slightly off, the system that generates airports may consider the current airport invalid and completely overwrite the World Hub submission.

Unfortunately, closing the World Hub does not solve that problem for the long term. If one submits an airport to the World Hub, and then next month, a world update sweeps across the region, it could still take it out. That might be desirable if the world update comes five years from now and the World Hub submission is now out of date. But it’s not desirable if your airport submission is current and has more detail in it than the original default airport did. And unfortunately, it gets even more complicated if you only edited part of the airport and didn’t do a comprehensive update.

In my opinion, at some point, I think that the system needs to be trained to help it understand what it should be overwriting and what it shouldn’t be.
 

That’s my guess, too. If Jörg’s World Update 17 date was correct, we have until Monday to submit any more changes. Unfortunately, if our submissions get rejected on Monday, we would have no ability to fix and resubmit.
 

It’s even worse than that. There are only about four of us regularly submitting multiple airports right now (not counting the two active World Hub moderators). A few people also submitted airports that got rejected. But the World Hub currently has no email notifications, so some people might not have even known that their airports were rejected, and they never fixed and resubmitted their airports.

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I’m going to take a slightly different tone here and encourage y’all to understand what the World Hub editors and moderator team have been doing and how it benefits the sim.

When the AI generated airports at the sim’s launch, it was limited by several factors: Sometimes the AI can’t tell a walkway from a taxiway, or a car parking lot from a ramp. It doesn’t know the correct taxiway designations, it places far too many signs, and the taxiway lights that are procedurally generated are often in the middle of the pavement. Runway lights, including approach lights and VASI/PAPI came from a database that’s over 15 years old. PAPI and VASI are most often placed in a default location that is too far down the runway. If a runway was closed (or shortened) for maintenance during the AI build, that’s how it is permanently in the sim. Ramp parking spots are incredibly off, trees encroach in the approach plane, beacons too large and out of place, buildings flattened or overly large, pavement edges and lines are sloppy, the list goes on.

All of these issues add up to airports that have flaws that I pretty much consider default. These flaws are widespread and affect nearly every airport in the sim in one way or another. The flaws can be quirky, to annoying, to immersion breaking, to making an airport entirely unuseable.

However, once the airport is built in the sim, without being affected by a world update or becoming bespoke, they are static. So you then have the issue of comparing those to airports that are constantly changing in the real world: runways and taxiways added, extended, or shortened. New ramps built or abandoned. Lights changed. Additionally the sim does change the aerial imagery often enough, but that often causes the static airport objects to no longer match the aerial.

To combat this, a handful of World Hub editors have been using a limited SDK toolset to painstakingly improve airports from the flawed, default AI generated state. The edits directly address all of the above points (with the exception of beacons and buildings) in an effort to make them match the updated aerials, current real-world conditions, and look and operate more like real airports. And in some cases they’re making them outright useable. But the SDK itself is quirky and limited in several ways, so we can only do so much, and boy does it take time. But it is an alpha, after all, and going forward, some of us have compiled and presented a list of tweaks and quality of life enhancements that would help the editing workflow and utility of the World Hub. I hope that ultimately it will allow more editors to partake.

My ask here is that more people visit a World Hub edited airport and notice the differences between what was and what is because that’s the only way to really grasp the value in what’s going on behind the scenes. Unfortunately it’s difficult to a/b compare because once the edits are pushed to the sim, you will no longer be able to see the original and you don’t know what you don’t know and unless some of this stuff is pointed out. I think that not marketing and demonstrating the enhancements that have taken place is an opportunity lost.

Ultimately, there is the larger question of how to handle the continuous aerial updates and of course dealing with the new AI push that is likely to come when 2024 launches. So with that it seems we’re on hold for now, which is a bummer. But again, I hope the end users of the sim appreciate and support the work that goes into this and can help the World Hub grow and remain a viable process with which to update the airports in the sim.

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Today’s list. Someone is really committed to getting Asian/Russian airports updated in World Hub!

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I think it’s the world hub mods themselves. That region is really lacking.

I’ve got a lot of work left to do in Northern California, but I’m pretty much on pause until 2024 drops and the WH reopens.

For changes made via World Hub, are they compatible with third-party addons? For example, I have a nice KMDW add-on installed, though it hasn’t been updated in a while. Will that scenery/enhancement reflect the new taxiway H or do I need to uninstall it now?

I’m pretty sure you need to uninstall it or it will overwrite the World Hub changes.

I had the freeware KMDW too, but I’ve stopped using it so the WH changes take effect.

Logical. I will admit I don’t know much about scenery development for MSFS, but if modeling airport enhancements requires including everything—which would also mean runways, taxiways, and parking—then that would make sense. World Hub updates modify base files, so Community content still overrides then?

Appreciate the quick response!

Yes, that is correct. Any airport in your Community folder will overwrite a default (base) airport. This includes runways, taxiways, buildings, signs, markings, etc. The in-sim KMDW should be current to the latest runways, taxiways, signs, and jetways should all be operable now. Default (not Custom) buildings will be seen if using the World Hub (base) airport.

If your freeware includes any custom buildings, they won’t be seen unless you have the freeware airport in the Community folder. But if the freeware airport is not current with runways, taxiways, signs, markings, etc. then those airport features won’t be correct.

I hope this clears up how scenery works in MSFS.

Thanks! This is odd though. LittleNavMap still shows the incorrect runways, even though I uninstalled the freeware KMDW add-on and updated the library in LNM.

I also removed Drzewiecki Design Chicago Landmarks, though to my knowledge that doesn’t include KMDW. After doing that, a refresh of the library in LNM still shows 13L/31R. And the sim is way wrong. What is going on here?


That’s odd. After the final KMDW World Hub update, I refreshed the LNM database and 31R was turned into the taxiway. I have Navigraph Navdata, but that should not impact runways which are part of the scenery.

Something looks wrong, for sure. Here’s what I get with the current default (in-sim) airport:

This appears to me to be correct per the latest FAA Airport Diagram.

However, when I load it in LNM, I get what you show above. I keep LNM up-to-date with the latest Airac and Scenery Library. But when I go to LNM, I see "Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - (90 days old - reload advised). So I’m reloading it. I usually update this and am almost positive I have just recently twice (with July and August Airac updates) reloaded it. Is there something else that I need to refresh?

Update: The reload did it. I see only the two correct 13-31 runways now. The third is a taxiway!

I’m stumped. Why do I have 3 instances of 13L? And why is the wrong runway gone? Is my database messed up? My Community and Official folders live in a separate drive from my %appdata% folder, that has never been a problem before.

My Community and Official folders are on a separate drive from the %appdata% folder, too. I would think that’s the way quite a few users have it.

Don’t know what to say here. I doubt your database is messed up. Maybe clear you cache and try again?

However, perhaps this should be split out into a separate topic, since the topic here is “World Hub Change Tracking”?

Done, separate topic started: World Hub updates and airport add-ons

I appreciate all the insight and expertise.

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Possible solution can be found here: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/world-hub-updates-and-airport-add-ons/652234/2

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Looks like this is the last update for the foreseeable future – some time in 2025. I’m looking forward to the next version of the World Hub and any enhancements it brings to the community members that give their time and effort fixing the world…

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I’m looking forward to contributing again. Hopefully they take heart to the enhancement requests we’ve been making!

I would love to be able to update my small hometown airport, but I don’t think the SDK process will ever be made simple enough for me to invest the time to learn all of the foibles of the tool, nor do I have a really good source of info to update taxiways and such, but that would be a (small) dream of mine to be able to do.

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What airport?

KMLE. It’s “fine” as the stock auto-gen airport, and it’s not really much to look at in real life – no cool defining features that would excite anyone. But it would be a good learning experience based on its simplicity. You know, then I’d go build LTFM :rofl: