Brunner aren’t the only choice, and more vendors are coming online.
Hi, Yes I am . Bought a CLS E NG yoke some month ago.
Unfortunately I’m in Belgium. But also here I had to pay the import taxes and VAT. because Switzerland is not a EU country.
It’s an expensieve piece of equippement but it’s worth every cent.
For an estimation I think you should contact US customs , no ?
Good luck
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I own both the Brunner MK2 Rudder and the MK2 Joystick base. Both are awesome and super versatile. You can and have to tinker with the software a lot though. I will definitely buy the MK2 Joke as well and axe my Alpha. FFB is like VR once you experienced it there is no going back.
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In MSFS, for ordinary spring-lodaed yokes, which have the only neutral position, the trim/elevator control is faked, to allow the yoke returning to the centered neutral position, but this is totally unlike the real plane.
How the Brunner software goes around this?
I’m trying to find this information as well, with no success.
Reading the docs on Brunner’s web site it seems there are two modes for trim handling: hardware and software.
What I believe is that (but that’s pure speculation):
- In hardware mode the sim’s trim would be totally shortcut, which means that you wouldn’t have trim position indication in the cockpit ? As for autopilot I don’t know.
- In software mode the sim’s trim would be updated but you have to modify the aircraft configuration to cancel the faked trim effect in the sim.
Unfortunately the documentation on the site just mentions “MSFX” and I’m wondering what sim it’s all about (FSX ? MSFS ?).
I’m considering buying such a unit, but I’m afraid of the lack of precise information about the way trim is handled in the sim and how the default (faked) behaviour is circumvented. No way to purchase such pricey stuff without knowing that 
And BTW, as I built my own non-FFB, but realistically trimmed, yoke (with an hardware trim that moves the center position, I’m interested to learn about that, especially the best way to cancel the in-sim trim while preserving the ability to move the trim position indicator in the cockpit.
I’m using the Brunner with the NLR Wheel Stand 2.0. I kind of wish I’d gone with the Wheel Stand DD because the 2.0 has bits on the side of the pedal platform that stick up, so I had to tilt the pedal base ever to slightly to get the rudder pedals to clear. Not a huge deal though.
I extended the yoke platform using 12mm plywood and then built a console using 5mm plywood covered in black stick-back plastic for color. I use the Gear Falcon throttle and trim. For the instruments I use Air Manager on a separate computer and run one screen directly in touch-screen mode and an iPad for the radio stack. In mixed reality it actually looks and feels pretty close to the real thing. Would love to add a motion platform, but I think the wife would kill me.
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Thank you Raeldor for sharing details about your setup ! Mine is quite similar (C152, VR, hardware controls etc.) and I’m considering the Brunner.
And I noticed on your photo that you use a trim wheel, so I’m wondering if you have some answers to my questions in the post just above yours ?
To me a realistic trim behavior is a requirement, and I’d like to make sure that it works well for that matter.
Thank you very much !
Hi,
So, using the trim wheel in it’s default (not hardware trim) mode definitely works as I expected. It takes the pressure off the yoke without the yoke position changing. Hardware mode would do the same, but I’m not sure if you can do that using an third party controller or only using the buttons on the Brunner yoke. I suspect that the hardware trim would still send the trim information to MSFS (for visual indication), but probably would not respond to changes made WITHIN MSFS.
If I get a bit of time later I’ll see if I can try out the hardware trim.
One thing I do notice is that the trim is VERY sensitive. I haven’t flown for many years, but I don’t remember it being THAT sensitive in the real 152.
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So, I gave it a quick try. It was quite interesting. If you set hardware trim, your trim up/down has to be bound to the Brunner yoke buttons as far as I can see. The effect of the trim though was MUCH more pronounced. And when I changed the trim, the yoke moved a considerable distance immediately. Also, when I trimmed to take the pressure off, it felt like it was more ‘stepped’ and not as smooth, but again, I felt the change immediately. This is as opposed to the software mode where it is smoother, but there seems to not be a direct response between trim position and yoke position in the same way. When I change the trim in software mode, the pressure coming off seems to be more aligned to aircraft handling.
It’s hard to say which is better. I like the more pronounced changes of the hardware mode, but the software mode feeling more linked to the aircraft handling and the yoke/trim response not being immediate somehow felt more real. If I could find a way to make the trim wheel itself less sensitive but increase the yoke movement in software mode, it feels like that would be the ideal. But I’m not sure how to do that. I need to get behind the yoke of a real 152 to compare again, but unfortunately I’m not in a country where that is very easy to do right now. 
This might be helpful…
https://cls2sim.brunner-innovation.swiss/TrimFunctionality.htm
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Hi Raeldor,
Thank you so much for testing and providing detailed feedback ! I did read the mentioned page before, but I think it’s not so explicit on some aspects so it’s good to learn from real experiences.
As far as I understand software trim is better in overall. What seems better to me (in theory) is that it allows the sim to be aware of the actual trim position and vice-versa. Which allows for displaying the position in the cockpit obviously, and I also assume this is mandatory to reflect autopilot actions.
But in this case the in-sim trim effect has to be canceled, as explained in the page. So I assume that you actually edit the elevator_trim_limit parameter ? (I was wondering if this would totally “lock” the flaps and prevent the indicator to move in the cockpit as well. But I will check that, as I need the same thing with my custom yoke anyway.) Or did you use the “Trim compensation” in CLS software ?
As for the sensitivity of your trim wheel this depends on the actual hardware you use. Let me know if I may provide some help on this subject.
Actually, changing that parameter (which seems to be in the flight_model.cfg not the aircraft.cfg) had no effect on the max angle the trim could be set to. I suspect these parameters are valid only for when you use trim up/down buttons as opposed to an analogue trim wheel, like I have, which maps directly to the control surface. In the end I changed the sensitivity settings in MSFS for my trim wheel to only move the trim flap about 50% of the way at full trim on the wheel. This seems to work a lot better for me and the ‘milimeter accuracy’ I needed to trim before has gone. I didn’t try the ‘trim compensation’, as I suspect that will move the elevator to compensate, which isn’t really what I was after.
Anyways, to cut a long story short it’s been a while since I’ve flown for real but software behaves as I expected. Moving the trim wheel with hands off the yoke makes the plane pitch up/down and the yoke moves in/out accordingly. Trimming while pulling back on the yoke slowly removes the pressure and the yoke stays in the same place. Hopefully a better flight model in 2024 will make the experience even better.
If anyone has a Brunner Yoke, and is using it with the Wb-Sim C172 Enhancement Mod, , I would be most interested in how it is wokring for them with that plane.
GOOD or BAD
If GOOD - “Great”
If you are having ANY issue, specifically with the WB-SIM, C172, if you want to get in contact with me, maybe we can find a solution together,
Particularly interested in the Force Feedback Trimming aspects .
Geoff ( N6722C)
WB-SIM C172 development Team Member
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Thanks again Raeldor,
For being a pilot IRL as well, I’m also looking at the behavior you describe very well.
But there is still something I don’t really get. To my understanding, in hardware mode you use the buttons on the yoke and the sim doesn’t know anything about the actual trim, so no problem here.
But it seems that you are using the software mode with an external wheel. So when the wheel is modified:
- The trim value is updated in the sim
- Which moves the trim indicator in the cockpit (which is good to have)
- AND also does like moving the control surfaces, to emulate trim with a “normal” joystick (<- which is a problem with FFB)
- The yoke also gets the trim position and updates forces accordingly (which is what we want ultimately)
But to get the realistic behavior, (3) should not happen. Which is the point of canceling the trim tabs effect, either modifying the .cfg file or using the compensation feature.
So I just don’t understand how you can get a realistic behavior without proper cancelation 
Reducing the sensitivity of the wheel can mitigate the problem, but not really overcome it.
Sorry if my questions are boring or if I missed something in your explanation, but I don’t want to invest in the hardware if I’m not sure it works perfectly for that matter Thanks again anyway.
I’m not entirely sure I understand what you mean by…
- AND also does like moving the control surfaces, to emulate trim with a “normal” joystick (<- which is a problem with FFB)
When I use the trim wheel on the C152, the trim tab (on the model) moves as expected, but the elevator does not move. I am assuming the flight model uses both the trim tab position and the elevator position to calculate the plane’s response.
Sorry if I’m mis-understanding.
Yes that’s what I meant by “does like moving the control surfaces”. Yet, with a normal joystick, the plane response is just like the elevator was moved (whatever the 3D rendition looks like).
But with a FFB joystick, this must not happen. The motors will compensate the effort, but as you said earlier there should be no plane response as long as the yoke doesn’t move.
So we need to “cancel” the default MSFS trim behavior. This is what editing the .cfg file as indicated in the documentation is supposed to do.
So I’m confused because you said that parameter has no effect, and don’t use the compensation feature either. That shouldn’t work with software mode
But maybe I misunderstood and you did actually use this parameter, although its appears to have “no effect on the max angle the trim could be set to”. Maybe you’re talking about the 3D rendition of the trim tabs and/or needle in the cockpit. Which would be perfect by the way, as long as the actual impact on the picth is canceled.
I would expect the 3d rendition should accurately reflect what’s going on in the flight model (in software trim mode at least). So setting that parameter (which is supposed to be the trim tab max angle) to 0.1 didn’t work because I could still trim and see the trim tab move it’s full range.
I’ll be honest, I’m a little confused why the trim needs to be cancelled at all in software mode if you’re not using compensation. I can understand if you’re using hardware mode or if you’re using compensation, but otherwise I just don’t see why you would cancel it.
‘there should be no plane response as long as the yoke doesn’t move.’ - This is definitely true. When I trim with the yoke held in position the plane does not react. It just relieves the pressure.
EDIT: I did some testing and loaded the SimVarWatcher. Apparently the elevator_trim_limit IS working (elevator trim position stays around zero) and the visual trim tab bears absolutely no relation to the actual trim. Having said that, setting this variable or not setting it didn’t seem to make any difference to the flight characteristics that I could tell.
EDIT2: Actually, now I’ve used it a bit more, I think it does seem less sensitive with that CFG setting changed. I honestly still don’t know why though, lol.
Hi Raeldor and all,
So I made some tests with my own setup, here’s how it goes if anyone interested, and maybe it will help clarify the need for “cancelation”
I don’t own a Brunner yet, but I have a custom-built yoke that deals with the most important “feedback” aspect in my opinion, namely the trim. I don’t get any other force feedback from that yoke, but that’s not a big deal.
Basically it works like a regular yoke, the difference being that the center point can be moved by a motor which is controlled using a custom trim wheel (or buttons on the yoke). That system allows to properly cancel the effort by using the trim, without any direct effect on the pitch unless the yoke is actually moved.
To use this Yoke, I can just let the simulator’s trim alone (at the center position) and just never deal with it. In this case everything is managed inside the yoke and the simulator doesn’t even know about it. The drawback is that there is no visual feedback in the sim (cockpit indicator or control surfaces). To me this is the same thing as hardware mode for the Brunner.
But, one may want to get the physical trim somewhat connected to the logical one in the sim, in order to get this visual feedback or when using the autopilot. To my understanding this is the same thing as software mode for the Brunner.
I implemented that for my Yoke, so the logical trim value in the sim reflects where the hardware trim is in the physical yoke. Which is good for example in VR to get visibility on the trim position.
This is where cancelation is necessary: when I move my trim I want the visual feedback but I dont wan’t MSFS to simulate an action on the elevator (as it has to do with a non-FFB device). Otherwise this is completely unusable: for example if I trim down to release effort without moving the yoke (as in real life), the plane would dive. Which is obviously not the desired effect.
This is where the flight model parameter comes into play. Hope that explanation is a bit clearer
Anyway, for anyone interested I can confirm that setting elevator_trim_limit=0.1 seems to do the job perfectly:
- The trim-related visuals seem to be totally independent, and continue to work correctly
- But the actual effect on the plane (as if the elevator was moved) is suppressed.
Which is great, and I assume it would work the same way with the Brunner.
The drawback is that you have to modify this parameter for every plane. So it would be great if MSFS had an option for that matter, it would be a very simple and effective way to add minimal support for people using FFB devices. I’ll check if this can be modified programmatically using SimConnect, could be a workaround…
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I’d like to dig into this a little deeper because I still am not fully clear.
In my understanding, trimming the airplane moves the trim tab. Assuming hands are off the yoke, the effect on the elevator for a plane not in motion is nothing. For a plane IN motion the air flow change over the surface WILL cause the elevator to move when the trim tab moves. If you are holding the yoke in a single position (let’s say against pressure) then trimming (moving the trim tab) will not move the elevator (because you are holding it steady), but it WILL release the pressure on the yoke because you are lessening the resistance over the surface of the elevator.
Is this understanding is correct, then the effect of the trim will sometimes move and sometimes not move the elevator depending on the aircraft speed (esp. moving vs not moving).
The 3d visuals NOT being linked to the true impact on the flight model is EXTREMELY confusing. The description for ELEVATOR_TRIM_LIMIT literally says it is the max angle the trim tab can be at. So when I set it to 0.1, my expectation was that when I trim to max position, that I would only see the trim tab move 0.1 degrees on the 3D model. That was not the case. My other expectation was that because I am in software mode, that because the trim tab is only supposed to be moving a max of 0.1 degrees that trim would have essentially NO effect on the plane. That also was not the case. So I’m still really confused as to exactly what this setting is doing because it seems to bear no relation to the description.
Yes we agree on that of course, both of us are/were pilots IRL and that’s what we experienced in real planes. And this the behavior we are looking for with FFB devices.
That being said, this is not the standard behavior with MSFS because it does only support regular devices whom the center position is fixed. So when the trim is moved, it emulates an effect on the elevator (*) so people can let the stick return to its center position at the same time as the trim is operated. This is not realistic at all, but this is the only solution with non-FFB devices.
So there are two solutions with FFB devices that allow to remove the pressure without actually moving the stick or yoke position:
- Either the sim’s trim ratio is left untouched, and everything is handled in the hardware
- Either the sim’s trim ratio is updated to reflect the hardware one, but in this case the aforementioned “workaround” (see * above) has to be canceled.
That’s what we can do with the ELEVATOR_TRIM_LIMIT, and it works as expected precisely because it seems to be only used by the flight model engine, and not correlated to the visuals.
For me it works perfectly: when I move my hardware trim (which actually just translates the center position in order the release the pressure):
- the trim indicator in the cockpit and the trimming wheel actually move,
- but, as expected, the pitch is not affected as long as the yoke doesn’t move.
- (I didn’t check for the trim tabs movement but I care less)
Indeed it’s surprising that this parameter only affects the flight model and not the visuals, but for this use-case it’s exactly what we want, so it’s pretty nice
PS : I only checked with the JPL C152 but I believe this is the standard behavior. I can’t find it anymore, but I remember reading somewhere that it was actually independent. Which seems logical since MSFS flight physics are not very elaborated: AFAIK it doesn’t actually simulate the airflow depending on the surfaces positions like XPlane is supposed to do. In my understanding it’s more like higher-level formulas that combine real time variables (speed, incidence etc.) with the parameters of the flight model.
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Just a quick heads up for all the Brunner folks. My CLS2Sim (v5.7.23) has trouble finding MSFS 2024. It fails to connect and produces the error “SimConnectWrapper could not be loaded. Missing SimConnect installation”. I guess a new release is due to provide MSFS 2024 compatibility. No yoking around until then.
Strange, working fine for me, flew about 3 hours yesterday with Brunner Yoke and pedals. Edit: I’m on version 5.5.2.
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