Just a couple of caveats to anyone reading what this user posts and thinking they speak with any authority: this user 1) misunderstands vital concepts of flight dynamics (e.g. has demonstrated they think adverse yaw affects all phases of a turn (it does not)), 2) often misinterprets professionals’ comments on flight dynamics based on their misunderstandings, and 3) has openly said they have long since uninstalled MSFS and would never recommend it to anyone as a flight simulator.
dont be angry, this user will only attention. and he doesn’t can anything for that. Because his knowlege is only half knowlege how so much here in this forum from non real world pilots. And by the way maybe some user write that they are real world pilots are. only so they feel better in order to push her egos. only my oppinion abut this forum. the important thing is what you think abouot the flightmodel. and the only thing to what you should keep attention is your oppinion about msfs 2020 and his flightmodel. and dont get influenced by the oppinions of the users here. Because of it can destroy your whole experience in msfs 2020. And i think its difficult for some user here to differentiate half knowlage from real knowlege. Becasue of some from us arent real world pilots or engineers int the airplane industri.
It has always existed in this game, but is incorrectly modelled. there are all sorts of things wrong with it. With the latest SU5 update they added a blunt, band-aid kind of a solution for it which doesn’t solve the issue and it also adds more issues for developers. Here’s a recent statement about it from a developer of Just Flight PA-28R Arrow III:
SU5 introduced the ability to mimic adverse yaw. This is probably where the lack of stability on the approach has come from - it’s a very blunt implementation of it, and with the inability to adjust for speed (the sim ‘takes care of it for you’) it can only be seen as a starting point. As a developer, we have very little control over it, certainly less than in FSX!
Smoothness of the rudder appears also to be an issue, as the ability to fly a coordinated turn is nowhere near as easy in this sim as in real life.
Adverse yaw was one of the most-requested flight dynamic improvements, yet it appears little thought has been given to correct implementation or other aspects of the flight dynamics which are tied in with it.
It does, depending on how the aircraft was designed and whether it is properly rigged. In an improperly rigged aircraft, during a medium-banked turn (20 to 45 degrees of bank angle) some amount of rudder would still be needed, because some amount of adverse yaw, however little, would still be generated even after the said turn is established. Steep turns would also require a small amount of top rudder to keep the turn coordinated.
I can quote several subject matter experts on this, including Wally Moran (and provide more sources, if requested, from other CFIs including the one at my nearest flight school). He is a retired airline captain, Designated Pilot Examiner, Master CFI and was elected NAFI Flight Instructor’s Hall of Fame in 2017.
That is a complete misunderstanding (intentional or not) of a post I wrote and a question I asked about Carenado’s M20R Ovation for MSFS over a year ago in a different forum. That aircraft was showing absolutely no signs of any adverse yaw while entering a medium-banked turn in all of the review videos I was watching. That’s why I was asking if it exhibited any adverse yaw during a constant and already established medium-banked turn. Because if it did, that would mean Carenado probably modelled it based on an incorrectly rigged plane but forgot or were unable to model the adverse yaw that is needed to be simulated while entering a turn.
I also mentioned in the second part of the question how all of the default GA planes in MSFS showed little to no adverse yaw and no rudder input was ever required while entering a turn, which goes to show how bad MSFS 2020’s game-physics model was (and it still is. With SU5 they added parameters for adverse yaw but it’s implemented incorrectly), which was also why I was hesitant about buying Carenado’s M20R for MSFS in the first place and hence asking the question.
That is entirely my choice. I don’t see what’s wrong with that. I might reinstall and recommend it again if and when things improve in future.
That’s what I mean, you add specific parameters to general statements. This is misleading. You’ve demonstrated it again here, and I was in no way aware of the thread you just posted, it was another more recent one.
Naturally what software you choose to install or uninstall is up to you. But you shouldn’t be surprised when others notice you have been spending a LOT of time over the last few months making often misleading accusations here, Avsim, Reddit and God knows where else about this ONE sim, aiming to damage the credibility of its flight model. None of the other sims have impeccable flight models so why are you spending so much time talking down this one?
That is definitely not my intention and I’m sorry that you feel this way. I myself am a customer of this product (premium deluxe). I have absolutely no benefit by trying to damage its credibility. Constructive criticism doesn’t damage credibility. Several others have written about the current state of MSFS flight model in this very forum and various other forums. I myself showed you statement in this thread from a FAA official, real world pilot and ground instructor who said MSFS 2020 is more arcade-like. Is he misleading you too?
This is another misunderstanding. I never said other flight sims’ flight models are perfect.
The context matters here. What is “the flightmodel”? Is he talking about stock planes and their implementation? Is he talking about the total potential of the aerodynamic calculations? Is he talking about one specific aircraft? What is he comparing it to? One person stating one thing doesn’t mean much per se, there are other real world pilots that would disagree with that guys statement. When judging such complex things like a flightmodel, you wan’t a consensus, not one guy with an opinion and possibly a bias. See “appeal to authority fallacy” regarding this matter. PS: not claiming all issues have been fixed regarding the flightmodel implementation, as you noted, some devs spoke about some current issues, that doesn’t mean that the whole thing is doomed forever though. Just trying to stay objective.
You are a customer of this product who has uninstalled it and now spends a lot of time in various forums pointing out its flaws (which nobody is denying it has) in very unconstructive ways. You’ve described its flight model as Mickey Mouse, no better than GTAV, arcade-like. You’ve ignored many people correcting you and praising MSFS’s flight model as comparing very well to its peers (nobody has said it’s perfect) to only focus on the comments that match your beliefs, especially the ones who use the words you like (such as your pilot saying ‘arcade-like’). Your username suggests you prize evidence, but you’re clearly not looking for evidence to make an informed conclusion, just evidence to support your grievances. I’m sure all of us welcome constructive criticism and drive for improvements. Multiple posts across multiple forums accusing a simulator you don’t even have installed of GTAV, Mickey Mouse modeling is obviously not part of that drive.
I never said you did say that. I said you spend all of your time only focusing on this one,
I take your point about the desire for physical controls and if done well in a home cockpit setup then I totally agree accurate panels combined with a multi-monitor or multi projector setup is still the best way. The issue though with building something like this is cost and space:
I have no idea what this guy spent (I would suspect North of £10k, maybe £20k) plus the time and expertise to do it (not inconsiderable). Factor in the need for a very understanding wife and you can see why I am saying VR is such a game changer. £350 gets you the feeling of a full size 3d cockpit environment and puts the world outside to scale in binocular vision using a device that fits in your desk drawer.
Is it as good as the sim posted above? No. Is it a big step along the way in immersion - absolutely.
By the way - loving the discussion on here so thanks for that!
One final thought - I strongly recommend that all of you consider taking a 1hr introductory flight if you possibly can. I know doing a PPL is very expensive indeed - certainly £5000+ (at least in the UK) but I used to work with a guy in IT who loved aviation just as much as I did. He didn’t do what I did in pursuing it professionaly and I think he did sometimes regret that (he did a PPL but let it lapse due to cost). His solution though was to just hire an instructor and go up for an hour a couple of times a year. It quenched his thirst to fly a bit, gave him the full experience of what planes actually feel like, enabled him to take off and land and was a nice and relatively affordable way to keep his hand in.
£7000 for a PPL isn’t affordable for many people, 2x£150 trial lessons a year is less than most people spend on their mobile phone!
What a condescending thing to say. I know real life pilots (my son and my brother-in-law, to be specific) that have said that the VR simulator experience is MORE realistic than flat screen in that you are in the cockpit and can see everything a RL pilot sees. Sure there are compromises. But you can’t say it’s less realistic.
Just did my first flight in the CAP 10 (a year late - there are very good reasons for that but they are irrelevant here), and in terms of the flight model feeling convincing I think it is a step ahead of all the default aircraft I have flown thus far. (Real life PPL experienced in C172 and PA28, but no real life experience in the CAP 10).
One thing that stood out is that I actually need to use right pedal to stay coordinated during climb in the CAP 10. That is needed in the C172 IRL as well (and in the PA28 if you neglect to use the rudder trim), but not in the MSFS rendition. In the CAP 10 model it is necessary, as it should be. I thought that was something Asobo just didn’t model, but it turns out they do - just not on all aircraft.
Caveat: I could not get the CAP 10 to enter a spin using what I would consider realistic pro-spin control inputs, but I will have to research and test more to determine if that is a model issue or a me issue.
The takeaway is that when we discuss whether “the MSFS 2020 flight model” is realistic or not, there are really two things we should discuss: Does the MSFS 2020 flight modeling system allow for a realistic flight model, and is the flight model realistic for a particular aircraft. Even a statement like “it works for GA aircraft but not for airliners” is in my opinion too simplistic; some default GA aircraft feel realistic, others do not.
If the MSFS 2020 flight model infrastructure allows for realistic flight models I think we are in good shape; it means Asobo and third parties can now focus on developing good flight models for each individual aircraft.
I never understand people wanting a perfect flight model in sims. In reality a sim will never ever… ever 100% realistically represent the exact behavior of a plane in all conditions. Even if it did, you would never be able to accurately judge it to real aircraft because when flying a real aircraft you can physically feel what the plane is doing and control the plane based on that feedback. If you’re talking about commercial jets… forget it. You’ll never get the feeling of the weight of the aircraft from a sim.
Yeah I think people expect a bit too much from simulators. I see the same or racing forums, people saying it doesn’t do this and it doesn’t do that, but for all of their accuracy, they are games at heart. Yes they simulate, but simulate is a very, very wide spectrum. Nothing short of a dedicated commercial setup or actual plane is going to cut it.