Pilatus PC12 - Simworks or Carenado?

Hello,
I want to purchase a PC12 and I noticed there are two options available. I wanted to get some further feedback from the community to help me choose which developer to go with. Below are more details about what I am particularly looking for.

  • Flight model, ground services (Cargo doors opening, cones, gpu etc)
  • Ease of use, Complexity, realism etc (Using a twist joystick)
  • Prop sounds, custom sounds etc
  • Interior and cabin
  • Pantkits (to make your own livery)

Any feedback and recommendations between the two would be very welcomed.

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The Carenado is good except for the sounds. The horn is annoying and there is a high pitched squeal in the background.
The Simworks is a work in progress right now. There is controversy over the flight model. They have a discord channel if you want to join that discussion. Otherwise it’s very nice.

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This requirement might be hard to satisfy :smiley:

Either way, the SWS is the better plane in most of those categories, but I’m not sure if it’s safely flyable without rudder pedals. It does require learning very specific piloting skills for this exact plane.

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I have the Carenado version and can tell you that it is

a) a beautiful rendition of this aircraft.

b) very easy on frame rates.

c) excellent cockpit functionality.

d) almost entirely without character.

e) blessed with an altitude selector unit that drives me up the wall.

f) almost entirely superseded by the SWS version.

I do not have the SWS version of this aircraft - yet - but I do have the SWS Kodiak 100 which is superior to any Carenado offering I have including visual modelling and although now an ‘old’ aircraft in the sim, one I return to again and again because it is simply very satisfying to fly.
I plan on picking up the SWS PC-12 after it’s next update
.

I have the Carenado version, it is one of the best Carenado add-ons, my recommendation is get the SWS version, SWS is a much more active developer and will keep updating the product and making it better, Carenado rarely makes an update and when they do they are simple fixes I have never seen a big update in a Carenado product, ever.

Since the Carenado version is not really that different I haven’t purchased the SWS version yet, I wish they (SWS) had done the NG first and then it would have been an instant buy with or without the Carenado plane.

Get the SWS if it is worst than Carenado in anything it will be better sooner or later.

Just one word of caution: SWS flight models are quite strange, the Kodiak has some quirks and the PC12 too if they think it should fly that way you are out of luck with an update.

Other than they can’t get the Hobbs meters to work properly? (Unless that’s been fixed) Last I knew it had 2 that recorded vastly different numbers - and the thing only has one engine.

Carenado. It’s fine. Great value, great experience.
SWS PC-12 is still a WIP, check back on it in 6 months to a year.

Also, you can’t directly compare them.

Carenado don’t aim to provide “study level” aircraft (ie: typically you won’t get working circuit breakers), but they provide high quality experiences (and modelling/textures) targeted at general users, providing decent flight models and “good enough” functionality to capture the essence of a specific aircraft’s experience. They do this really well, and a bunch of their aircraft really shine in this market segment eg: Waco, C170, Beech 18 (+mod), PC-12 and others. They provide basic tablets too, for easy configuration.

They do update their aircraft, and do accept bug reports/feedback (personal experience here) but there is no need to keep updating an aircraft once it’s “stable” and meets the targeted released objective. Only if a SU breaks something radically does it need a new update beyond that, or perhaps to update core improvements in Flight modelling.

SWS, otoh, see themselves as a “study level” provider (generally), and their flight models seem attuned towards a very particular type of user with very specific control devices and higher level cockpit setups. As such, this can result in a less than optimal flight experience if you are using lower level control setups and may not have the skills required to finesse their flight model. They also attempt to model complex flight systems that are very susceptible to breaking or may not quite be 100% at the current time. The Kodiak 100 is a case in point here (personal experience and bug reporting here), and they are currently working through related issues in the PC-12 as well. They will get there, at some point. Kudo’s for trying though, it’s not an easy thing to do.

Their main issue here, however, is they seem to market it to general users but in practice it seems really designed for specialist users (unless you have the skills to finesse it). I wager they don’t do any flight testing with XBox controller or single twist stick setups to make it user friendly for those types of users, especially the ones still upskilling. PC-12 is not known to be a difficult plane to fly, but it also has a few gotcha’s a like any aircraft has. See this reddit thread on rl pc-12, for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/zg2i6y/pc12/

Modelling, texture, sound wise I don’t see much difference between the two tbh.
Plenty of developers nail this aspect, but it’s the Flight Modelling and systems modeling/depth where the real quality shines, and Carenado’s are more than “good enough”. Unless you like pressing circuit breakers perhaps!:woman_shrugging:

So it really depends on what experience you are after, and your tolerance for pain working through current issues that might exist for your particular setup. Carendo had these once (and fixed for me), SWS it seems is still working through some issues here. From my experience there is also no difference between Carenado update/fix tempo and SWS update/fix tempo.

Up to you!

PS
Difficult to fly does not mean “realistic”, especially in a commercial level flight sim where people are “flying” with a wide range of user contexts, from couch/xbox to PC/Stick to yoke/pedals to VR combos to full motion platforms.

Also, “realism” is in the mind in simulators like this. There are multiple key channels of information and experience (kinaesthetic/proprioceptive/risk ++) central to “realism” that cannot be recreated in a sim like this. If a product is of a good quality level they’re great for education, mental, and procedural training, but no matter how much someone markets something as “realistic”, it’s not , by a long shot. It’s “realistic” only in very narrow ways when it comes to actually flying.

Enjoy the experience for what it is though, and it’s fantastic.

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I should have explained more what I meant by realism.

I currently fly using a twist joystick (LOGITECH extreame3dpro) (I do not currently have the finances for the whole yolk and pedal set up)

I have a whole bunch of addons that I get on with perfectly fine using this method.

I was more trying to find out if the Carenado version is more user friendly when it comes to using a joystick or weather they both behave in a similar way. This for me is really key at the moment to enjoy the experience

I have heard some people say the SWS version currently is probably best left alone until later if you have a joystick.

Really appreciate this in depth review and right now based on what people are saying I am thinking that the Carenado version is the best place to start, with the view to get SWS later on this year.

For my situation would you agree for this to be the way to go?

I use a T16000M with twist for rudder. Carenado is fine.

As to SWS, you can use twist rudder, but then the skill factor I spoke about above comes very much into play. I would also wait till they resolve their FM issues, which have been acknowledged by them and are a WIP. They can take a couple of goes to get it right for lower level setups too, so I wouldn’t be in a rush.

Yes. Less stress = more fun. KISS.

Note: Some users reported frame rate issues with the Carenado PC-12 Avidyne FMC on long flights. I personally never had issues with it, and it was supposed to be fixed in the last update, but if you do you can just switch it off and use the other FMC. It’s also PMS50 compatible, tablet configurable.

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It sort of feels like the carenado one is a mix match of different serial numbers while the Simworks one is modeled after a specific PC-12.
The Simworks model is more likely to change and I follow the forum and, as a RW single Pilot PC-12 operator, I find myself disagreeing with their performance numbers and changes more than I find myself agreeing. That being said they are making changes in an attempt to better the plane so there won’t be any complaining.

Simworks is overall the better model. It is more complete and better supported by a better developer. For the price difference, if you are only going to get one, I would get the simworks. It might be worth waiting for the Simworks one to hit the marketplace before purchasing just to make updates easier.

That being said, the Carenado one is fine for sim use. It mostly functions like it should and paired with a TDS 750 you can get good basic operational practice with it. But Carenado is known for not updating their airplanes and lack of support and bugs will always be there.

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I’ll also note separate.
The Blacksquare TBM 850 is an overall better turboprop than both the pc-12 options right now. The PC-12’s outstanding qualities aren’t realized in the sim since you aren’t actually loading cargo and you can change pax amounts with the click of a button. Blacksquare’s turboprop is well done and there are very few weird flight dynamics, glitching, or control issues compared to the PC-12 offerings.

SWS PC-12 all the way. The flight model is way different, SWS ‘feels’ like a powerful large aircraft - both on takeoff and landings and flight. Developed and updated by a great developer and current, real life PC-12 pilots. Working on failures now, major update in the works.

Both are good options. Carenado is more benign in nature when flying and it just works how you expect. I have no issues with it at all. The SWS version feels different and I think I prefer the cockpit in the SWS version but it does have some occasional niggles like the order in which you active Nav modes. I’ve had to recycle AP and Nav modes to get it to switch to GPS for example when other times it worked first time. That may be related to the PMS GTN750 I’m using but this is not an issue with that unit in the Carenado.
If you are using VR, the prop in the SWS is more realistic and a non issue for motion reprojection.
In theory, the SWS should mature in the future with additional features like failures etc. but I’m a big believer in buying for what they offer now, not what may come in the future.

Carenado aircraft create conflicts with other aircraft in your sim (replacing core avionics and behavior files) and may lead to serious issues that are hard to discover.

If you ask me for negative things about Carenado I have a long list, but this is not one of them and it is simply not true.
I have a lot of Carenado planes (I’ve made my mistakes) and not a single one intereferes with other aircraft or creates any serious issue.

Having said that it wouldn’t surprise me if there was a case with a plane I don’t have (the Waco for example) but then we are referring to a problem with a particular add-on.

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+10 to that.

Other great Turboprops

Not to derail the thread about PC12 specifically, but turboprops are great, and there’s a bunch of good ones comparable to the PC12 in their own way.

Don’t forget the default TBM-930. It’s come a long way, and tbh you could just as well be completely happy with that and not buy any payware Turboprops. I have a bunch of them, all good, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the TBM-930 either. The only mods I’ve added to it are:

Protip: It only has the one throttle/prop lever which is simulated well. Very useful tips/guide in this post: TBM 930 Feather and fuel cutoff - #6 by tclayton2k

The King Air 360i is also great with a couple of mod tweaks:

The default King Air should be getting the G3X upgrade as part of SU15 (does not have it in the beta currently) so you can ditch the G1000NXi mod for it when that is implemented. Huge boost in useability either way.

If STOL turbo is your thing, you can’t go past the Milviz PC-6.
Can only hit about 120kts with a tailwindđŸ˜± but it’s the bomb for low n’ slow working the bush, or simulating a skydive exit and beta the skydivers to land.

In between all those is the C208 B Grand Caravan which is a bit faster than the porter, but also fine. Easy to fly, reliable, G1000NXi, and If you hunt around Gunpilots’s discord there’s a neat Supervan-900 mod that gives it a real boost.

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With its floor hatch and droppable cargo box, it’s also great for smuggling imaginary Cuban cigars. Just file a plan into Key West and fly a long and low final. Drop the box into the water about a quarter mile before coming in over land!

What about the cockpits. Do they both model the same “version” or whatever? Like are you comparing the same exact plane in both cases?

I currently do have the Coronado version but I’ve looked online and seem images of a very different PC-12 cockpit that I like a lot better.

Tl;dr:
Carenado - beauty over function.
SWS - function over beauty.

I have only flown with
Piper M-Class PA-46 Malibu. piston.
Piper M-Class PA-46 Malibu. turbo.
piper warrior.
Cessna 152 172.
So I don’t know how a PC-12 flies.
For me the Carenado superior flew as expected, the SWS PC-12 flew a bit strange.
The slip ball goes to the left when you give left foot, normally it is the other way around. The autopilot is ok, to keep its course it rocks again and again, carenado does not have that. With a strong crosswind I was able to land the Carenado nicely on one wheel, with the SWS I could not keep it inline with the runway.
A turbo is not displayed properly in MSFS, with a piston you change the speed of the engine, with a turbo you change the pitch of the prop. At 27,000 feet we once quickly reduced the throttle, you don’t know what you are experiencing, the deceleration was enormous. So landing is very different than with a piston plane, if you put it on idle to glide in, they can scrape you off the runway. I also have a Brunner yoke and it now works without force feedback because I have to set the ailerons in the sim. SWS connected the ailerons to the rudder. My SWS PC-12 goes in the trash. There is an e-mail address for support, but you will not get an answer if you bought it in the sim market.

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