[PS5] Can we talk about how realistic this sim is? (Warning: long post!)

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21

Sorry, can’t agree here.

Yes, peripherals and a motion cockpit would provide more realism and immersion, but that’s not the kind of realism I’m looking for.

Let’s keep the comparison with racing. Let’s assume a Ferrari 296GT3 with fresh tires and a full tank can do Aremberg (a corner on Nordschleife) at ~86mph. Now you have a game on PS5 that you play with controller and you can easily do 97 with this car. Not realistic. Now you can go and buy a expensive direct drive wheel, a racing cockpit with motion, load cell pedals and whatever, but you still will be able to drive this car through this corner much faster than you would be able to IRL. So dispite all the hardware, for me, it would still be a arcade game.

A game can have the most shiny, best looking, most detailed cars and tracks, but if the physics aren’t realistic, it’s basically flowed.

Everyone has different expectations for those aspects ofc.

I get that for some ppl the pre-flight procedures are more important than actually flying. They may spend an hour on this but then use sim rate to speed up the flight.

For me that’s not the case. First, I never liked all the strict procedures and standards we have in commercial aviations today. I’m always shaking my head when I hear some things mentioned on Mentour Pilot’s videos. A commercial pilot seems to be extremely restricted in what he’s allowed to do these days. I honestly wouldn’t want to be a commercial pilot!

And second, it’s just no joy for me to learn how to set up an Airbus or Boeing from cold and dark and doing checklists and whatever.

Same in Sim Racing btw, setting up a car for a race is the most annoying and boring part for me.

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[quote=“RogerRoger5326, post:19, topic:756902”]

I guess I had just wrong expectations because I always heard about MSFS being a super realistic sim

[/quote]

How close to reality is a flight simulator depends on several factors, not only flight model. You could have a really good flight model, but a really bad atmospheric conditions simulation, and that would be the same, would not feel realistic at all.

All in all, MSFS provides a good approximation (a reasonable ground rendering -probably the best among current home simulators, a reasonable flight model, reasonable different flight conditions, adequate procedures), with several shortcomings and issues. Again, it’s not a class D simulator, you won’t feel or perceive the same as in real life.

This happens with all current flight simulators, and what one has, the other doesn’t. For example, in my opinion XP12 is better in several aspects, but ground rendering is still very much behind MSFS and if I want to make a VFR flight, MSFS is my choice. For practicing procedures or airliner flights, I would take other sim instead. Another example would be DCS, which -for air combat simulation- is the current standard and in my opinion no fighter in MSFS is even near a decent DCS airplane.

MSFS 2024 is not a simcade either, for that there are other simulators. It’s just a simulator, with some really good features (currently I would say that ground rendering is the biggest feature, and some third party airplanes which are really good), and some shortcomings (rushed alpha stage release -i mean, it has been released for a completely new platform -PS-while the base platform -pc- is still full of bugs, very dissimilar experiences between different airplanes, etc).

Take those reviews with a grain of salt, because you never know which standards a given reviewer is thinking about to say it is close or not to reality.

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Actually, I’m wondering why you are using the sim at all? You will never get 100% realism using pixels for gaming. Why were you even part way expecting that? It is what it says it is - a simulation. As near as it can get using a machine.
For what it is and what it offers, whatever method you prefer to use to partake in this sim, it is pretty darn good. As are GT7, Xplane, DCS etc. At the end of the day they are all simulations. Just enjoy the parts that you want to. There are no rules for usage. Happy flying or racing, enjoy both. :wink: :grinning_face:

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I agree, but it depends on the priority of the factors. And I think I already made pretty clear, that, for me, the basics are a priority. And the basics for a flight sim, again in my opinion, are physics/flight model, as for a car sim the basics are cars that handle as real as possible. And this of course includes anything related. Weather influences the physics ofc, so that’s part of the basics.

No specific reason. It’s available on PC for so long and it is generally known as “the” flight simulator out there. I was always curious about it, but never owned a X-Box or PC that could run it (and I’m also a Linux user for many years now), so when it was announced for PS5 I immediately decided to buy it.

I’m aware there’s no 100% realism and I certainly didn’t expect this.

I can’t agree on the second part of your post. First, I’m pretty sure that existing simulators used to train pilots are considerably closer to real life, at least for the aspects I’m talking about (physics/flight model) and second, and I’m also very sure about this, a more realistic Sim could easily be done, if we take money and consumer hardware limitations out of the equation.

But, as with car/racing sims, it will probably never be 100% realistic, simply because getting realistic data for cars & airplanes under all conditions would require to purposeful crash a lot of cars and planes and ofc nobody will crash a Ferrari F40 or a F-18 just to get correct data.

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In many cases, these procedures and standards are written in blood.

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Yeah, I’m aware of this. Still it often seems to strict for me. Like, IIRC, a pilots not allowed to talk to the copilot about anything not related to flying when they’re below 10000 feet. And even just releasing water from your body seems to be tied to a lot of regulations and protocols. Guess I would just carry an empty bottle in my flight case :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Edit: OMG, is this seriously one of those forums that censors words which describe something that every human has to do every day? Come on…..

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Yep, you learn ways round it like inserting some … or — between letters

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@RogerRoger5326 I think your opinion will change once you are able to purchase higher fidelity and accuracy products when the PS5 marketplace opens.
The default Asobo aircraft are not accurate as they are designed to be accessible and usable by anyone of any skill level.
I started my journey in FS20 in 2021 on xbox series X, after a few years of buzzing about i decided to move over to PC with all the options availiable to it.
The Sim on PC is MUCH MUCH more realistic than it was on console as the console version is built for game pad use with hotas as a limited option, where as PC is designed to work with the multitude of peripherals availiable.
All that being said, this IS a game and as with IRacing sims should never be used or considered a useful real world training TOOL.
Just because someone can drive a GT3 car in Gran Turismo doesn’t mean they can competitively race in real life.

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The physics of flight on the sim is generally considered to be pretty realistic these days. I have flown on a Fixed Base Simulator for both an Airbus A320CEO and Boeing 737-800NG and the skills learned from flying the A20N and PMDG 737-800 transferred across well and I handled both with relative ease once I got used to how the controls moved compared to the desktop stick and pedals. There’s a big learning curve initially with having everything around you rather than all on a screen in front of you. The thing that really got my attention was how easy it is for things to be missed if not properly following checklists and you’ve really got to stay alert to everything going on, hence why it’s all business below 10000ft

However on a real thing, you suddenly throw movement into the mix as well which is what would really make it challenging for a desktop simmer to handle a real aircraft

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No, because this won’t happen. I already spent full price on a game, that (in my opinion) shouldn’t have been released in it’s current state, and I definitely won’t spend any more money on this.

Oh, great! And where exactly did MS communicate this?

Again, and I really wish I would have put this in the title of my thread, I’m only talking about flight model/physics. I’m not talking about peripherals.

Now I really think there’s a reason why quite a few real racing drivers are playing iRacing. Max said about a year ago that the tire model and physics are pretty close and the only thing missing is motion/G-forces. (It’s somewhere on YouTube).

I agree on the second quote, although I think the reason is less physics/car handling (although GT7, as already said, is nowhere near iRacing, it’s a Simcade) but rather your opponents.

Well, maybe, but there are still unanswered questions:

No answer so far. Are there any ppl from MS/Asobo on this board? I guess they’re the only ones who could answer this confidently.

But whatever, for me it’s really not that important any more. I pretty much stopped playing the game. And the reason has nothing to do with flight model/physics but rather with all the bugs, the incredible awful UI/UX (shouldn’t a company that makes a OS be good at that?) and, probably the main reason, the graphics/performance.

Edit: BTW folks, if anyone here owns a real A330 I’m up for a IRL test!:wink:

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Wow, you are really a negative about this sim. Why are you wanting realism, it is not exactly as in real life, whether the physics, the peripherals, the flight planning (which uses real world Navigraph by the way), it is what it says on the tin. A simulation of flight - it cannot by it’s very nature be a real world Boeing or Airbus simulator as in those great big expensive machines.
If you want real, pay your 200.00++ £ or dollars or euros per hour and fly in the real simulators, Better yet, fly as a real world pilot.
Since many of us can’t and this is as close as we can get, it would be nice if you would refrain from slamming it. Most of us who fly here love it - for all its faults!

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Seems that someone should have done their research as to what MSFS offers compared to their expectations.
Self professed experts will never be satisfied with someone elses options or offering in the subject the consider them selves to be an expert in.
Maybe Ace Combat or Project Wingman would suit them better as they will understand what they offer.

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Sorry, but is impossible the realism level that you had in your mind.
Professional simulators, with real “Data Package – Demostrated performance” manufacturer (data get in real flight with aircraft) are near of reality but they cost millions, the others only have theoretical physics data, pretty good, but lack of aircraft manufacturer data packs.

It is similar to Iracing or assetto corsa vs professional F1 team simulator. But an airplane is harder to simulate than a car.

Asseto Corsa (original), for example, was a studio of telemetry software for professional racing teams in a Vallelunga garage, they got data from real models in the racing track, so it is easier to simulate that airplane. The hard part was the tires, because it has a variable behaviour, temperature, grip, friction, driver, different car… They were so good that iRacing copied many of their features (competition is good). In real life, F1 cars with same tires had a different behaviour. An airplane has many more variables because it operates on a variable fluid.

Having said all that, and looking at the development information (you can search for their development videos “Discovery Series” to learn more about how they implement physics, they discussed tyre behaviour, contact points on the aircraft’s surfaces, ground effect, etc.)

I personally think it’s quite good in terms of physics, but it depends on the aircraft developer whether it’s more realistic or not due to the lack of data.

Many make up for this with feedback from real pilots to better ‘simulate’ real behaviour, using parameters that are not real but necessary to make it resemble the real thing.

Getting data packs from real life to improve professional simulator, Computational fluid dynamics, etc.
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Getting data from real life to improve professional simulator, Computational fluid dynamics, etc.
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34

The physics on the sim will not be different between pc, xbox and PlayStation

Aircraft are build to be able to take a beating and survive. A hard landing where no flare was done at all will require inspection of the landing gear and perhaps a few replacement parts but won’t cause a full on crash

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The a330 activates TOGA Lock automatically in some circumstances (like stalls). Since he presumably doesn’t know how to set up a flight plan, he’s possibly trying to descend too fast (Vertical Speed) or too slow (airspeed), so the plane kicks into auto throttle to prevent a crash.
TL;DR: OP, the actual plane does the same thing you experienced

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I don’t think I am. I was even trying to hold back with criticism because I’m absolutely aware that on forums dedicated to a certain game people are usually easily offended when you criticize anything.

It’s just not what I expected and I don’t like it much. So what? That shouldn’t impact anyone who likes the game.

MSFS is available since 1982(!), so yeah, I was expecting a much more polished product tbh.

And why I want realism? Is that a serious question? It’s marketed as a Sim, and the official product page says it’s “the most sophisticated, immersive and awe-inspiring flight simulator of all time.”

In all seriousness, where would I have found those information? Link me to a single page or YouTube video uploaded before the game was released, that mentions that there is no replay tool in the PS5 version.
But I guess you’re talking about flight model/physics. So how would I have gotten this info before buying the game if it’s even hard to get the info here right now?
I’m not wasting hours on research. As I said, I bought the game and it’s not what I expected. No big deal, happened before, will happen again.

I have no idea what this means. If you think that I think I’m an expert you haven’t read my posts.

Now this is good and useful information! I didn’t know there is no real life data used here (if I understand correctly). I probably wouldn’t even have asked about realism had I known this.

You’re absolutely correct about all of this except that I was aware of auto throttle kicking in.

But since the point of my experiment was simulating a passenger landing an Airbus, that’s all to be expected, isn’t it?

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There are real life data about aircraft performance, But it is a summary of its performance, performance curves, climb according to weight and altitude, mtow, engine power. Not the data taken by the manufacturer in each circumstance, angle of attack, and others that the manufacturer takes each milisecond during the test flights.

The closest thing to this is only possible in aerodynamic computing facilities at aircraft manufacturers. A domestic computer or PS5 can’t simulate this in real time.

So, this last is simulated in the msfs physics engine with the “Surface Element Model”, X-plane use “Blade Element Theory” and others physics aerodynamic theories using some interaction points on the surfaces of the simulator aircraft https://web.archive.org/web/20210312095307/https://docs.flightsimulator.com/html/Additional_Information/Flight_Model_Physics.htm
All of this is how I understand it to work. And it will depend on how well the plane is made by the developer (not all of them are from Asobo).

See the discovery videos that I linked in previous post if you want see under the hood of msfs.

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It is exactly the same in racing simulators, even in real racing teams, they have to take data on the track to improve the simulations using green/yellow paraffin and those grids with pressure sensors. This data is obviously not provided to a video game company.
MSFS, X-Plane, and DCS are the best domestic aviation simulators you can find.

P.S: Not, Asobo isn’t developing msfs since 1982, It has been developed by different development companies over time.

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38

It’s the same as a child’s curiosity. When I was around 11 years old I found MSFS2004 in the store and I thought “wow cool, airplanes!” And bought it. Of course, as a kid there was a lot to figure out. But eventually I did. I had no clue what PAPI’s or ILS even was. Yeah I’ve seen some people on YouTube enter some numbers down below but that was all way too complicated for me. So I just started hand landing the plane time after time again. And the funny thing is, I developed some kind of sense as to what the ideal glideslope is. Figuring things out yourself before actually learning in-depth can be really educational.

As to how realistic the Sim is, it depends on the airplane’s developer. I nailed landings in Asobo’s 737, but when i purchased the PMDG 737 it came around and smacked me back to reality. No wonder Boeing’s doing a collaboration with PMDG to train real pilots in the 737’s systems. Now, in stead of using the simplified EFB, i’m finding myself preparing flights with Simbrief.

Some people think these are just games and not to be taken seriously. But if you take it serious, with the rights hardware and software (addons), it can be study-level. And that situation you found yourself in is yet another experience you learned from. The more hours you put in to it, the more lessons. Have fun! :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

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39

In my opinion it is moderately realistic in some aspects and extremely un-realistic in others. Its no1 priority is clearly the visuals. The accuracy of the flight simulation is in a comfortable 2d or 3d place. I think that’s pretty evident. At least in my opinion.

Aircraft performance and weather realism are acceptable as long as they are not bugged, which sometimes they are..

For me, the least realistic aspect of all, is how the aircraft hand-fly. I find it absurd. I never finished my ppl because i couldnt afford it, but, going by my admittedly short experience on a glider, a 172 and a pa-38, it really is nothing like i remember it. like… at all.

I think, the OP’s example of the airliner is sound. In real life, if a passenger had to, for whatever reason, land a 747 hand flying… there’s no way that would happen, matter of fact, he or she would probably miss the runway by a mile and perhaps miss the entire airport.

In the sim most people would probably get it at the first try and probably 90% will set it on the runway with no damage in 3.

Is it a fault or is it by design to make it more playable? could be both. But it lacks “seat of the pants” feeling on the controls. Yes i know they consult with real pilots, and collect data with accelerometers and that’s all fine. I question the validity of that strategy. It is very possible that an external consultant will tell you just what you want to hear. They need more guys with flying experience doing the actual coding, or sitting in the chair beside the guy that does the actual coding. It feels as if i had coded a software about oil painting, or horseback riding. Things i haven’t done once in my entire life. The people that use that software will be able to tell right away.

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I do agree with some of your statements, but it completely depends on what gear you’re using to fly and which software (addons) you’re using. If you take the PMDG 737 for example in combination with the TCA Boeing Yoke and the right settings, it’ll be a very close resemblance of the real thing. Especially in MSFS2024, pilots have reported that PMDG, in combination with this sim, have finally found the correct yaw effect that’s similar to real life. In all previous sims, this wasn’t really the case because of software physics limitations. Boeing has even partnered with PMDG to use their products for real pilot system trainings, that’s how serious it is. So if you have let’s say more than a 1000 hours in the PMDG 737, the chances of you actually landing the plane safely are huge compared to someone who has no consumer-grade simulator experience. ATC will guide you to an ILS cat lll if possible to autoland the aircraft anyway if you were in this type of situation, even if you claim to have many hours of simulator experience.

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