PSA: Reverb G2 small sweet spots, observations and solutions

I haven’t flown that long and I’m afraid my newbie enthusiasm overwhelms every other consideration. I definitely have a lot of other stuff that I should be doing IRL so that kinda limits flying time and I’ve saved a lot of flight spawning points so I’m constantly removing the headgear to load a new location I’ve flown in 2D to see comparatively what the 3D experience is like. Perhaps those brief, frequent interludes have spared me any eye strain.

Totally off-topic here but when I tried the paid TestHMD 12/2020 version under SteamVR just a little while ago, my G2 controller turned into a black-gloved hand! (which I was clueless to touching things with!). It would be great if a black-gloved “touch” controller was now some part of SteamVR - it might even be worth getting the Steam version of MSFS if one could have a touch controller for MSFS. Anyone know anything more about the black-gloved hand my G2 controller turned into?!

@JALxml, can you help me out? I purchased/downloaded that “app” myself, but I feel like a complete moron because all I can do is stand there at the control desk and look around. I can’t figure out how to move to the various tests, and I figure once I finally either do by sheer accident, or by someone helping me, I’ll probably feel stupid because of how easy it turns out to be! (Note that one thing I know isn’t helping me is the fact that I’m disabled, and confined to bed, so I can’t turn around to see what’s behind me, or physically move in any direction IRL.)

I have the exact same problem with an app I downloaded that’s supposed to let you go for a ride on “20 Thousand Leagues Under the Sea”, which is a very old (and I’m assuming long since retired) ride at Disney, but again, all I can do is stand there and look around like some kind of retard lol…

Neither of them offers the kind of turn around and move that I get in the cliffhouse with my Reverb G2 controller thumb sticks. At least that I’ve managed to find or activate at any rate.

TIA for any help!

Back more on topic, I tried my readers on inside my G2s, but that experiment lasted for about 0.5 seconds. It was so bad there was ZERO chance it would help with anything, except to make things way worse. I think they’re a +1.5, but I need my readers to read what it says on the earpiece of my readers lol!

Hi, @KevyKevTPA

In the within SteamVR ROV Test FOV app, my G2 joysticks will rotate me with left or right presses and pressing forward teleports me. So I can move around the Steam Home or the ROV environment much as for the Windows M-R Cliff House.

In the 12/2020 TestHMD app, which when launched from Windows will run within the SteamVR app, by trial-and-error, I found the answer to moving. It involves hand gestures while holding down buttons. If your setup is like mine for that version of the app, the controllers will appear as two black gloved hands in VR.

Holding down the B key on the right controller and waving the controller to the left or right rotates your virtual view. Be careful how vigorous you are. You can really work up some disorienting rotational speed!

The Y button on the left controller moves you towards or away something. Think of it as grabbing or pushing away space. There is a first “no button press” load up movement, then a “button press” movement action.

To move forward, do the following:

  1. Without pressing Y, from a raised forearm position, extend your left forearm and hand forward swinging out and down from the elbow.
  2. Now, grab some space by pressing and holding the Y button, and swing your forearm up and back (the reverse of the previous movement), “pulling” yourself forward. Repeat motions 1 and 2 as necessary.

To move backwards, do the following:

  1. Without pressing Y, with your forearm extended, bring your controller up and back by bending your arm at the elbow.
  2. Now, start pressing against some space by pressing and holding the Y button, and swing your forearm down and forward to push yourself back (the reverse of motion #1 but done with a Y button press). Repeat motions 1 and 2 as necessary.

I haven’t figured out how to touch and grab anything yet with my G2 controllers in the standalone 12/2020 TestHMD app run in SteamVR. I have to get back to IRL for a good while so if you figure out how to do that with the gloved hands, I’d love to know how. Since some of the visual acuity tests can be interactive, presumably one has to be able to set things in motion with the hands, too, if one wants to do the interactive versions of the tests.

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@JALxml, no idea if this is going to help or not (I literally just saw the post and haven’t yet had the opportunity to test it), but I saved it, printed it, and once I rest my eyes a bit (just finished an hour long flight in VR), I’m gonna give 'er a shot.

Either way, thank you, I’ve been asking this question all over the Interweb, and you’re the first to even try answering me! YouTube proved especially fruitless, even the maker of the app (that I PAID for!!) didn’t respond to me. At least by last night when I last checked.

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I’ve sold off my G2 and awaiting delivery on a new one tomorrow. I don’t think it will change anything, but I wanted to get rid of that possibility in my head. I’ll report back if I see any difference at all compared to the first unit. I also exported all debug info from the old one to compare panel alignments settings…

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By the time I’ve written this and the story develops, I’ve passed the 30 days window limit… and I can’t hope an RMA until at least March by now (see the reddit sub… :face_vomiting: )

What kind of “debug info” did you save?

Just the SteamVR dump:

SteamVR Runtime Version: 1.15.19
vrcmd Version: 1.15.19

Device 0 - holographic.WindowsHolographic - HP Reverb Virtual Reality Headset G20 by WindowsMR - HMD - generic_hmd
D3DAdapterIndex: 0
RecommendedRenderTargetSize: width=4488, height=4384
Left Projection: left=-1.165493, right=0.993331, top=-1.056018, bottom=1.058884
Right Projection: left=-0.991899, right=1.172687, top=-1.051831, bottom=1.059687
Lens Center: (0.000000, 0.000000), (0.000000, 0.000000)
Eye To Head Left
0.999997 -0.001406 0.001092 -0.031249
0.001411 0.999990 -0.003686 -0.000188
-0.001088 0.003687 0.999990 0.000329
Eye To Head Right
0.999997 0.001413 -0.001089 0.031249
-0.001408 0.999990 0.003685 0.000187
0.001094 -0.003684 0.999991 -0.000329
Tracking universe: 223809965155400
Driver VirtualDesktop : 0 displays
Driver holographic : 0 displays
Driver htc : 0 displays
Driver indexcontroller : 0 displays
Driver indexhmd : 0 displays
Driver lighthouse : 0 displays
Driver oculus : 0 displays
Driver oculus_legacy : 0 displays
Driver gamepad : 0 displays
Driver ivry : 0 displays
Driver null : 0 displays
Dashboard pointer device: 0

Panel alignment looked really good on that one numbers wise though…

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One thing that I’ve wondered about in how clearly one can see the sweet spot or anything else in a G2 or other VR headset is ocular dominance when one eye has better vision than the other for some reason.

Ocular dominance - Wikipedia

In spite of ocular dominance, during cataract surgery, I felt that whichever eye had better vision at the time stepped up and became the predominant purveyor of useful visual information. But perhaps if one tries unaided vision with an HMD display or one’s prescription has aged and one eye is worse than the other, even wearing glasses in the headset, if ocular dominance persisted for the worse eye, that might explain why a headset display is clearer for some folks than others - but it probably wouldn’t explain differences across brands of headsets for the same person, e.g., comparing your G2 to your Index, etc.

Ocular dominance shows itself because of binocular disparity and the attendant parallax, each eye sees a nearby object in a slightly different position. If you’re looking at the object with both eyes and close the non-dominant eye by squinting, the object still stays in the same place but when you look with both eyes and then close the dominant eyelid by squinting, the object moves as it’s now being displayed by your visual perception from the non-dominant eye, whose different positional information is normally cleverly hidden by the brain to avoid confusing perception, motor action, etc. Try it by holding an index finger up a few inches from the end of your nose! :slightly_smiling_face:

I agree with this and why I’ve commented not only the Asobo developer behind the implementation of the mouse cursor must be left eye dominant, but so is the entire test team… :grin:

I my personal case yes I have one of the two eyes needing slightly more correction than the other, but not much, and like you said, it shouldn’t show as much difference when comparing 2 headsets like G2 and Index.

Yesterday, following up your post in the Cliff House, I’ve tried capturing some photos which would best represent the differences I see with and without glasses. I’m not entirely fond of the result so I’ve kept publishing them for now but I’ll do. In trying to adjust the G2 for this photo shoot and taking notes of the differences in order to make sure I can convey the same in the photos, it was clear to me I can enhance the sharpness in “forcing” on the eyes (trying one at a time then both), like when I try to read up close I have to force as well. When you’re forcing on the eye, you do feel it and you do know you’re doing it, as much as you do know when you let your eyes relaxing to their natural focusing “strength”. And this is where right after I’ve tried again the Index for comparison and it is clear to me: I just let go my eyes relaxed and I can see naturally in the Index, whereas if I don’t force I can’t see as clearly in the G2 (let alone chromatic problems due, I believe, in a difference in calibration between the G2 optics and the WMR anti-CA).

Now you have the same correction than me, the same headset, yet, you can see clearly in the G2 and I can’t… Did you manage to fly say 1H00 or 1h30 straight since the last time? Did you feel any particular fatigue in the eyes?

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Typo? Mean “fond”?!

The only fatigue I’ve noticed is when I try to fly a more complex plane or crank up the graphics settings and get micro-jittering or juddering and it doesn’t take very long for a headache from that to set in! Of all the planes I’ve tried, the Shock Ultra, maybe because it can be flown at the ~slowest speed?, gives my best eye experience with the highest graphics settings but I’ve barely scratched the surface of what I might try. For me, I think the novelty of VR is still overwhelming with enthusiasm any objective judgements I might try to form on long-term experience. I’ve been to Hong Kong a number of times IRL but it’s been almost a decade since I was last there. Just to fly around the bay and see what’s changed in that decade is incredible (I hope that city gets a photogrammetric update - flying over Victoria Peak looks pretty yukky in terms of details right now!). Since Hong Kong is one of the most scenic and physically blessed locales in the world, it might pay MS dividends in terms of enthusiasm for MSFS to upgrade the visual quality of Hong Kong flying sooner rather than later!

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typo, thanks!

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There you have it! By the index finger test, I’m currently left eye dominant and have been most of my life, as far as I can tell (I asked my right eye be operated on first for cataract surgery for that reason!). So if the sharpness of the VR image and the VR mouse cursor position is somehow related to eye dominance, I fall into the leftist group that designed VR for MSFS (urban legend starting here, how long before picked up QAnon!? While politics is verboten on the site, I hope mild political jokes are not!). :slightly_smiling_face:

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I’m not sure for mild politics, but religion and philosophy started 18H ago :joy:

How Realistic is VR - #180 by KevyKevTPA

PS: there are interesting developments in the posts following I encourage reading too!

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I am a VR McScrooge! Bah! Humbug! :wink: How Realistic is VR - #197 by JALxml

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Here are mines for info:

SteamVR Runtime Version: 1.16.2
vrcmd Version: 1.16.2

Device 0 - holographic.WindowsHolographic - HP Reverb Virtual Reality Headset G20 by WindowsMR - HMD - generic_hmd
		D3DAdapterIndex:   0
		 RecommendedRenderTargetSize: width=3172, height=3100
		 Left Projection: left=-1.169062, right=0.991684, top=-1.057655, bottom=1.054540
		Right Projection: left=-0.993433, right=1.169252, top=-1.054049, bottom=1.057184
		Lens Center: (0.000000, 0.000000), (0.000000, 0.000000)
		Eye To Head Left
0.999994 -0.001135 0.001575 -0.032917
0.001133 0.999995 0.001227 0.000006
-0.001576 -0.001226 0.999994 -0.000132
		Eye To Head Right
0.999994 0.001133 -0.001576 0.032917
-0.001135 0.999995 -0.001227 -0.000007
0.001575 0.001228 0.999994 0.000133
		Tracking universe: 42185081794400
Driver holographic : 0 displays
Driver htc : 0 displays
Driver indexcontroller : 0 displays
Driver indexhmd : 0 displays
Driver lighthouse : 0 displays
Driver oculus : 0 displays
Driver oculus_legacy : 0 displays
Driver gamepad : 0 displays
Driver null : 0 displays
Dashboard pointer device: 0

And here is the G1 I had in June (glad I’ve saved these just in case):

SteamVR Runtime Version: 1.13.2
vrcmd Version: 1.13.2

Device 0 - holographic.WindowsHolographic - HP Reverb VR Headset VR1000-2xxx0 by WindowsMR - HMD - generic_hmd
		D3DAdapterIndex:   0
		 RecommendedRenderTargetSize: width=2208, height=2160
		 Left Projection: left=-1.112804, right=0.944776, top=-1.001175, bottom=1.013526
		Right Projection: left=-0.948403, right=1.110657, top=-1.006503, bottom=1.011904
		Lens Center: (0.000000, 0.000000), (0.000000, 0.000000)
		Eye To Head Left
1.000000 0.000000 0.000000 -0.031500
0.000000 1.000000 0.000000 0.000000
0.000000 0.000000 1.000000 0.000000
		Eye To Head Right
1.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.031500
0.000000 1.000000 0.000000 0.000000
0.000000 0.000000 1.000000 0.000000
		Tracking universe: 27718518337900
Driver holographic : 0 displays
Driver htc : 0 displays
Driver indexcontroller : 0 displays
Driver indexhmd : 0 displays
Driver lighthouse : 0 displays
Driver oculus : 0 displays
Driver oculus_legacy : 0 displays
Driver gamepad : 0 displays
Driver null : 0 displays
Dashboard pointer device: 4294967295

Now I’ve to figure out a quick way to represent these matrices graphically, like here:

HMD Geometry Database - HMD Geometry Database

Sure, sure, it’s always my fault! Just for the record, my wife would agree with that 1000%!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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Another thought that enters my head as to how a disparity between eyes could cause problems with visual sharpness in sweet spot or elsewhere is the use of the interpupillary distance, the distance between both pupils. What would be better is if HMD headsets could be adjusted for monocular PD’s, a.k.a., Dual PD’s (the distance from a pupil of the left or right eye to nose bridge). Monocular PD’s are not necessarily the same for both eyes and I should hope if you go to a really good optician, they use monocular PD’s, rather than the IPD to make and position your lens centers for expensive prescriptive glasses, etc.

How to measure pupillary distance (PD) - All About Vision (describes monocular PD determination as being better than IPD).

One way of getting an idea of whether there is a significant difference in your monocular PD for each eye (other than calling your optical care provider or trying to measure it directly yourself with a ruler or app) would be to close one eye when doing a vision sharpness test with your headset. For example, with the G2, adjust the physical IPD slider looking only through one eye. Do it a number of times to get an average (averages are more accurate than individual determinations for a Gaussian variable by ~1/sqrt(n), where n is the number of determinations, so an average of 4 determinations is 2x as accurate as the value of a single determination). Do the same for the other eye. If you get the same IPD with both eyes, then you’re monocular PD is the same for both eyes.

So it would be interesting if the folks that think their headset is very sharp have identical monocular PD’s whereas folks that find the vision not so sharp have significantly different monocular PD’s for each eye. Wonder if any monocular PD adjustments, physical or software, will ever be offered?

This is a good point as well! The headsets are also missing vertical adjustment but not everyone might have both eyes at the same height either.At least a software only vertical offset per eye could help there.

In my case I’ve tried everything (I guess): rotation around the nose (diff height), sliding the headset left right (PD instead of IPD), and up down + IPD (alignement to lenses centres), vertical rotation as well (toward forehead and away from the chick bones, or the reverse). Nothing does.

When perfectly aligned, which I can discern by comparative adjustments like you are indicating, there is no CA but every thing is a little blurry. Forcing on the eyes can restore some sharpness indicating to me a closer focal distance than expected or experienced with the Index. When rotating (forehead/chick bones) I can manage to get a sharper picture with little eye effort, but there is visible CA and I can see the anti-CA filter spreading RGB too far apart. I believe it is sharper though because of the rotation putting my eyes slightly above or below the center line and therefore view the image at a different focal length, because of the lens shape at this location light rays are converging closer (or farther - at this hour I can’t think much LOL). But because the focal distance is not the one it has been calibrated for, I see the anti-CA working too much. NB: a WMR dev has confirmed me the G2 headset anti-CA is calibrated per-headset prior shipping and can’t be user-adjusted.

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NB: a WMR dev has confirmed me the G2 headset anti-CA is calibrated per-headset prior shipping and can’t be user-adjusted.

That’s an odd thing to say as there definitely must be an “adjustable” software component as the new introduced in last november WMR anti-CA filter is applied to older headsets like Odyssey+ and Reverb G1 aswell.

Very late edit: Also the hardware IPD adjustment on G2 can be seen as a user-adjusting the anti-CA filter or, as I said earlier, the filter will be applied incorrectly to the headset.

Yeah, I know that the G2 panels need time to warm up, but I have now played about 45 minutes worth of oing pong and it wasn’t getting better.

It’s either the panels themselves being not low-persistence enough compared to what the Oculus uses or there’s another SW bug. Did a bit of research and there are people complaining in the Star Wars Squadrons community that they experience the same thing and are getting more smooth output at 60Hz. Will give that a go and report back.

PS: the reddit answer was posted publicly in the release thread if the latest WMR for SteamVR release announcement, but I have no clue on how to link a reddit thread using the reddit android app, hence the screenshot.

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