Flying this plane again recently. I still like it. I do find it a little hard to get & keep in trim, but the main issue is the rather bizarre ground handling. I know all the tricks: rudder, aileron into wind, slowly ramp up the power until about 40kts, all of that jazz. But it’s still weird. It makes taxiing a chore, and takeoff more of a handful than I think it should be.
If Carendo made that a little better, it would be ace.
The real one does behave a little bit like that with a crosswind unfortunately- you do have to “work” to keep it on centreline tbh - maybe not quite as twitchy - but that again is a thing in the Sim.
There are loads of other issues to fix that have already been mentioned.
Yes, there seem to be other real-world pilots who agree with you regarding the ground handling of many of the aircraft in the sim. I just read one recently that claimed that something called “ground friction” is incorrect and consequently the planes are overly sensitive to cross winds and torque.
Having only been a passenger in mostly airliners and cargo aircraft and never a pilot, I can’t speak authoritatively.
I do recall one time sitting in the front row of a Beech 99 during a strong cross-wind approach and landing at KBWI (Baltimore, MD). I wasn’t in the cockpit, but I had a clear view of the pilot, and the runway. Other than the extreme crab style runway alignment, the rest of the landing and roll-out felt quite normal and very stable. But I don’t know if that can be attributed to great piloting skills or just normal aircraft behavior under windy conditions. (Prior to landing, that flight was quite bumpy with the aircraft being tossed around a lot by the gusty winds.)
The Beech 99 is a considerably heavier airplane than the 210 and sturdier in terms of its gear - so in this regard, it would have more traction and more steering autority on the ground.
The 210’s gear is relatively small for its size and weight, especially the nose wheel. So when taxiing, the airplane constantly wants to turn its nose into the wind and needs required input. I would say once the crosswind wind is stronger than 15 knots and gusty, you can actully feel the weather vane effect on the tires if you are not using cross controls - there is not really much you can do about that - the plane just wants to start drifting downwind while wanting to turn its nose into wind simultaneaously. This is also why the tires have a lot more wear and tear that cause balding on the outer sides (we do rotate the main wheel tires from time to time to compensate the wear).
Doing a non standard 0 Flap take off may help, as there will be less drag produced, providing the takeoff distance availiable is sufficiant.
One other thing we do not have in the Sim is the feel and feedback of the controls authority - this actually makes it more difficult to sense the amount of control input required.
I just bought this one and have been enjoying it, but I’m having a bit of trouble with mixture. It seems like my mixture settings don’t make a big difference regardless of altitude. For instance, I was at 20,000 feet and I was able to fly with almost full mixture without a problem. Is this because of the Turbocharged engine, or is it a glitch?
Thanks!
That’s indeed because of the turbocharged engine. The turbocharger basically compresses the available air and compensates for the lack of oxygen at altitude that way. While you have to lean a naturally aspirated engine to create the proper fuel/air mixture, that isn’t necessary in a turbo charged engine.
So when, if at all, would you lean the fuel/air mixture in flight? Or is the control pretty much just there to get the engine started and to cut it off at the end like the condition lever on a turboprop?
I have this same question!
When the plane reaches its critical altitude.
https://www.pilotscafe.com/glossary/critical-altitude/
https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/aircraft-systems/how-an-aircraft-turbocharger-works/
Generally, you’d leave the mixture rich for takeoff and climb, and then you’d lean in cruise, especially for flying lean of peak.
A turbo charger is primarily compressing the available air , making it denser to make more oxygen available for ignition.
It essentially, on its own, is not managing fuel mixture. It is an air condenser which at some point in the process then combines with fuel.
Thus it reaches a point at which compression doesn’t produce any further advantage.
However, on older turbocharged planes, there should be an ECU guage through which you can manage fuel/air mixture. On even older models without this you lean until it runs rough and give back a bit of mixture until smooth.
"Turbo or not, you lean mostly because the mixture required for takeoff is far richer than necessary for lower power settings, even at sea level. Aircraft engines are partly air cooled and partly liquid cooled - the full-time liquid cooling is oil, and on takeoff, there is part time liquid cooling in the form of excess gasoline from the full rich mixture.
The reduction in air pressure with altitude, or density with heat, means this effect becomes more extreme the higher you go, but you should be leaning, even at sea level, once power is reduced from takeoff (you should be leaning on the ground as well as soon as the engine is running smoothly after start, until just before takeoff, if you want to best mitigate the effects of the lead in the avgas).
The turbocharger just fools the engine into thinking its altitude is lower than it really is. A cruise power setting of 22" of manifold pressure is 22" inches of manifold pressure to the engine, whether it’s 22" of natural atmospheric pressure achieved at wide open throttle at 8000 ft on a non-turbo engine, or 22" of artificially produced manifold pressure at 15000 ft in the turbocharged one.
The density of the compressed air intake charge is reduced by compression heating of the charge by the turbo, which reduces its efficiency (you’ll need a slightly wider throttle opening to get the same MP with a hot charge) and complicates cooling (the hot air reduces detonation safety margins). Intake intercoolers are used to reduce the temperature of the intake charge, without reducing the pressure, to mitigate this problem.
In all cases, leaning is done in reference to exhaust gas temperature, usually some value on the lean side of peak EGT to get best fuel economy and relatively cool cylinders, with an eye on cylinder head temperatures.
With a turbo, the main effect of altitude that has to be kept in mind is cylinder cooling efficiency. The turbo gives the engine an artificial ability to make low altitude power at high altitude. The problem is although the intake charge is “thick”, being compressed air, the air coming in to cool the cylinders is “thin” and the heat rejection rate via the cooling fins declines, so leaning and cowl flap settings need to take this into account in managing cylinder head temperatures.
Exactly how that is to be done depends on the engine/airframe, per the POH and you should be leaning at all times based on POH procedures.
Cooling efficiency is critical to cylinder life with turbocharged engines, because they tend to operate a lot closer to temperature margins because of the demands of cooling in thin air. Good engine baffling is key. Badly installed baffles or degraded baffle seals, that wouldn’t be a problem in a non-turbo installation, can cause high cylinder head temperatures with a turbo at higher altitude. Even if the cylinder head temperatures are good, bad baffles can lead to hot spots not picked up by the CHT probes and can ruin a cylinder with no obvious outward signs until it’s too late."
I’m learning so much from all your responses! Am I understanding correctly that we still want to lean to the most efficient fuel/fuel temperature in flight even though the turbo “tricks” the engine into thinking it’s at a lower altitude?
for the 210, I can still get to the point where pulling the mixture causes the engine to starve, and then I can push forward enough to get that healthy sound back. Is this okay to do for the 210?
IRL you have to decide what is less expensive - extra fuel price flying on reach side or replacing overheated spare parts & risking to fall from the sky with a killed engine
For T210 aircraft:
LOOK YOUR POH
❏ High Performance aircraft because it is rated at >200 hp
❏ Two maximum power settings
❏ 5-minute max power = 310 hp: 36.5”Hg @ 2700 RPM used for takeoff and
high-power climbs
❏ Continuous max power = 285 hp: 35”Hg @ 2600 RPM for all other operations
❏ Fuel injected
❏ Cowl flaps to aid in cooling (more power = more heat output)
❏ Cowl flaps open: start, surface taxi, takeoff, climb, go-around
❏ Cowl flaps closed: cruise, descent
❏ Rudder trim to reduce pedal pressure and increase pilot comfort
Turbocharged Engine
❏ Basic design and function of a turbocharger
❏ Definition of Critical Altitude
❏ T210 Critical Altitude is 17,000 feet
❏ ***Below 17,000 feet ***
❏ Do not lean for climb even after initial 5 minute throttle back
❏ Above 17,000 feet
❏ Reduce maximum Manifold Pressure down from 35” by 1” for every 1,000 feet
above 17,000 feet.
❏ Service Ceiling 24,000MSL
❏ Turbocharged engines susceptible to damage from poor engine temperature
management
❏ Plan ahead, and reduce power slowly in descent to avoid shock cooling
❏ Engine must run at least 5 minutes after power reduced to idle to allow for heat
dissipation
Intercooler
❏ Basic design and function of intercooler
❏ Reduces all engine operating temperatures (inlet air, CHT, valve, oil, EGT, CDT)
❏ Intercooled air being chilled is more dense => more fuel burn => more HP power than
published for given MP and RPM
❏ On takeoff (in standard conditions)
❏ Slowly advance throttle until differential temperature = -30 °C
❏ Reduce power if differential temperature is more negative than -30 °C
❏ For every 15 °C above standard temperature, add 1” of manifold pressure
❏ For every 15 °C below standard temperature, subtract 1” of manifold pressure
Cruise
❏ Power to cruise (as desired)
❏ Propeller to cruise (as desired)
❏ Cowl flaps closed
❏ Mixture lean per the POH (TIT below 1500 °C)
❏ Rudder trim
Descent
❏ Adjust mixture for smooth operation (full rich for idle operation)
❏ Gradual descent 1” / minute MP reduction avoid shock cooling Turbo
❏ Plan descent and shutdown to protect turbo are critical to avoid damage
❏ Cowl flaps closed
❏ Rudder trim
Thank you! Am I understanding correctly that we leave mixture at full rich until 17,000 ft?
Please check whether this msfs 24 model of C210 has an intercooler. They don’t all have it as it is more often than not an aftermarket add on. IRL.
So when I’m using the EDM JPI 800, I use LeanFind and lean until the bar reaches its peak (which I can tell because it starts to fall back down) and then push the mixture in a bit so I’m right above the peak? Am I doing that right?
If so, does that mean that leaning the mixture using this gauge is essentially the same as doing it by ear or by RPM on a normal piston engine, but this way is more exact because a turbocharged engine can overheat and needs to be more carefully monitored? In other words, a T210 needs to have the exact right mixture so you don’t damage the engine, whereas a normal piston has more room for error without consequence.
Thanks everyone!
The A2A bonanza and Baron have excellent teaching materials and you tube videos on how to lean a turbocharged aircraft.The EDM shows a graphic of each cylinder and how it is bearing up under the mixture set. If it is getting too hot, which is a thing with turbos, it will rise, if too cold it will drop and be less efficient. You must use the POH to determine best operating point.
I don’t know that the Carenado has failures built in but ordinarily if it is, when 1 cylinder becomes abnormal you would need to repair.
I suggest looking up Mike Busch. He provides excellent information about leaning.
Might be a good idea to scroll up in this thread to July 5th and read down a few posts where the modeling of the EGT gauges is discussed by some owner/pilots. While this is a good and fun model to fly, it is NOT a study-level model in my books. Read on to find a link to the POH if you like; or simply enjoy flying this nice Turbo Centurion without worrying too much about leaning it out as you would in the normally aspirated models. This is a fun ride that one can enjoy with less rigorous operation; and the converse of this is that it is NOT the right model to learn/practice rigorous ops. In any case that is how I use it as a flight sim product. Good flying and enjoy!
