[PSA] XPForce force-feedback will be coming to FS2020!

Is the referred to Alternative trim, MSFS Fudge method of implementing Trim with a spring loaded joystick. So in MSFS, is there a way to turn that OFF already ??

The alternate-trim system is what allows the stick’s centerpoint to move with trim instead of being always at the center as it has to be with a simple spring-centered game joystick. If possible, leave this on. For adjusting the trim, use the sim’s own keys because the XPForce takes the current trim settings from the sim. XPForce’s “auto-trim” and “zero trim” options were added specifically for rotary users on X-Plane and rely on quite a bit of guesswork, so don’t use these if any other option exists (i.e. trimming the plane yourself!)

@jimkeir thanks for the kind explanation!

I also understand now why I was experiencing these issues with button 3 and 4. Basically, when XPForce states “button 3” it basically refers to button 4 in FFB2 Joystick. That is because there is an option to button 0, which I imagen refers to button 1 in the joystick.

Therefore every time I was clicking button 3 to auto trim, nothing was happening (but the soft lift nose up) and everytime I clicked on button 4, the trim was drastically changing, mostly downwards).

Now is all clear, thanks for the support. I will avoid using auto trim and keep alternative trim engaged if possible.

Still suffering some issues with trim and AP (at times AP disengages immediately after engaging for some reason, others the plane falls quickly. This is not happening when using the game without XPForce)

Anyway, keep up the good work and looking forward for the next update. I will play a bit with preferences to see if I can increased force feedback forces on air, which feel a bit too low. Perhaps you could think of including a way to save and share profiles for planes among users of your Addon!

For autopilot, check the settings. There are three different options available to try and help with this. The problem is that the sim isn’t expecting the stick to move unless you move it, so with a force-feedback stick which moves itself, or with alt-trim enabled when the sim will think it’s moving if the trim changes, this assumption is wrong. Check the manual for the details on the autopilot modes.

The button names come from the stick itself, basically the hardware reports predetermined button names and those are the ones that get shown. Ideally those names are correct and descriptive but if they’re not it doesn’t help things. If they are, then renumbering everything from 1 gets rid of the useful names and you end up with “button 47” instead of “Top Hatswitch Right” so it’s a no-win situation.

Saving and sharing profiles is already supported - again, check the manual, there are load/save buttons and you can share the config files.

Hey @jimkeir

Thanks, I will check the AP options. However the FFB2 does not move on its own unless the hand grabs the joystick and even when I don’t touch it, this behaviour in AP is present. Could be related to alternate trim. I will check the other modes.

In regards of the name, then is different what is physically written on the controller to what is transmitted to the program. But once aware of the problem, there is no issue.

I was aware profiles could be saved and loaded, but not shared. Good to know!

The Impatience of some —. Demand, Demand, I want it NOW…

“I don’t care if you have a life (I don’t, so why should you)”

FIX IT, FIX it now … “I want it now !!!”

"I want what I want when I want it"

and your answer is

"You’ll get what I’ve got, when I’ve got it"

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There’s a beta download available at https://www.fsmissioneditor.com/downloads/ (on the “Beta” tab) which fixes a couple of minor problems - pitch exaggeration was being used for roll, and the stall-warning never triggered. If this seems OK I’ll put it out as a general update.

I tested the beta version today, but nothing has been fixed!!!

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Hey, Jimkeir! I’m sure I said that nothing was fixed in 1.0.9738 but the official version of this has nothing to do with the customers and you’re doing it your way? Are you only fixed to the ‘Fix a crash in X-Plane 11.50 when showing the update dialog.’?What a mess!!! What’s the use of telling me a bugs! You can’t even fix it! Customers aren’t idiots!!!

For everyone else’s reference, I checked the bugs that are being referred to (gear-down vibration, stick shaker, roll exaggeration and elevator droop) for a third time across a range of aircraft and can confirm that they are definitely fixed (stick shaker, roll exaggeration) or working as designed (gear vibration, elevator droop) at least as far as I can tell based on the descriptions I got. I have requested additional information about problems I can’t reproduce and have simply had the same one-line description repeated, which doesn’t help me to fix it. It should also be noted that this person has said they are using a DIY controller which may be introducing separate problems. One additional randomly-occurring UI problem has been fixed since this release and one known problem remains, a rare and random lockup when manually re-scanning hardware which should only be needed if you physically disconnect and reconnect your controllers with the sim running.

I completely agree in most cases. Don’t expect any future responses.

Hello Jim, thank you for your hard work !! I have a Logitech G940 and your software is working almost perfectly, except for one thing.

When I engage the Autopilot, when the plane is climbing or descending, especially if the Autopilot has to correct too much pitch, the stick starts to shake almost violently until I hold it in my hands. I covered the sensor in the stick but no difference. Tried the 3 AP options in your software but the problem persists.
The violent shaking is the same that happened in menus, but I think it´s been corrected.

Apart from that, thanks to you this joystick came back to life !!

Sorry for my bad english.

Should it be possible, or is it planned to be possible, to do the Kap140 AP ground test, where you turn on the AP, set in demands, and the FF Yoke(Joystick) moves ?

ie set the VS or heading bug, and the Joystick responds by moving ??

ie … As in this RLl video

Hi,

I don’t have the 940 myself to test with but from the controllers I do have, the shaking is an unfortunate side-effect of how these sticks work. Basically the sticks’ motors aren’t perfect and when you set the center to a particular place, the stick overshoots if you don’t have your hand on it - it’s designed to add force against something. As it overshoots it tries to compensate by moving the center in the other direction and, depending on how tight the motors’ control is, this can escalate.

I’ll see if I can add some kind of soft transition when moving from manual to autopilot modes and test whether it makes any difference or not. In the meantime though, if you leave your hand on the stick until it’s stabilised in autopilot mode it should stop the shaking.

Another suggestion is to Permanently enable the Joystick, by putting a little piece of adhesive tape, over the Hand Sensor (small hole where bottom of your hand rests on the joystick")

This will keep it ACTIVE, even when you remove your hand, otherwise it literally goes “Limp and Floppy” as soon as you remove your hand.

Be aware, if you do this, the Motors will remain active ALL THE TIME 24/7, when the Joystick has AC power. Might cause it to get 'warm" and could be considered to be a potential “fire risk”.

Maybe you should consider UNPLUGGING the AC power cord when not using the Joystick ???

still no force feedback option for the MS Sidwinder FF 2??

Why would you say that? XPForce is working great with my Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 joystick.

It is all working okay is on my G940, but what I would LOVE to see, is a slider or plottable graph for forces versus airspeed that could be modified so that increasing IAS firms up the stick and decreasing speed, for instance in the approach and landing phase will cause more washout and reduced forces to the stick. Any chance?

It already does take airspeed into account and makes the stick feel sloppy at lower speeds based on (IIRC) the base stall speed - propwash also considered. A customisable graph would be nice though, I agree. I’ve got another update about ready to go which definitely won’t get this added but I will re-check the airspeed/strength just in case.

Maybe you can include the current table(s) in the docs, so we know what it is expected to do.

There’s a brief mention on p.17:

These forces change depending on the airflow over each control surface, which is affected mainly by the relative airspeed but also by things like propwash and trim settings

There aren’t any static-value tables in use for aircraft responses, it’s all smooth math functions based on various properties of the aircraft and its environment. I’m happy to update more detail up to a point, but not exact figures mainly because I tweak them from time to time. Completely open to suggestions for more detail to document though, it makes my life easier in the long run!