SimWorks Studios Kodiak 100 one the best aircraft for MSFS 2020

I’ve now got maybe 300 hours in the Kodiak and follow POH procedure (including careful trim for weight/wind and observance of torque and prop rpm limits). I still find smooth take off and landings a bit of a challenge - the Caravan is like flying on rails in comparison.

I think the most noticeable thing (on approach) is the amount of prop drag at low power settings. This was after an update or two ago. Also it seems very nose heavy at landing - I have to really hold the yoke back to stop the nosewheel thumping down.

On take off it still seems like it wants to stay on the ground…until it doesn’t and then you are up and away…perhaps with the dreaded left wing dip.

Still my fav plane in the SIM. After a few weeks of flying the PMDG 737 it was rather nice getting back into the Kodiak!

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I’m coming back to the sim after 18 months and was considering the Kodiak to replace the role I used the Caravan for… STOL, bush, sight-seeing. But the whole point of considering the Kodiak was for a more realistic experience. It doesn’t sound like that’s the case. Too bad. Why is it not able to do proper STOL take-offs? Why is it dropping out of the sky at low power settings on final?

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Not everyone has the take-off issues or pitch problems - but if your worried that you might be one of them there is a patch due out in a few weeks so hold off for now and see what people have to say after the patch.

Note that a lot of the issues with take-off come from using maximum torque (look up the book max allowed torque for weight and altitude and then if it is not a short field go maybe 10% under that again) and trying to force it off the ground too early.

But even when you do everything right you do still need to ease gently back on the stick and maintain pitch under 10 degrees. Full throttle and yank back will definitely see you nose skyward, drop a wing and unless you are quick at applying opposite rudder to pick up the dropped wing, crash and burn.

These are the book max torque figures by temp and altitude, these are maximum so I tend to knock another 10% off on normal runways. For example, a 20 degree day at 5000 feet on a reasonable length runway i would take the max torque of 1440 and knock off another 140 for a max take-off torque of 1350 or so.

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Below is a chart of Rotation and Landing speeds by weight. Hence at maximum payload, by the chart, you should rotate at 70 knots and land at 70 knots whereas if you are 1000kg below max you rotate at 55 knots and land at 59 knots. I find flying the book numbers at maximum weight are pretty good but the low takeoff weight figures are optimistic by 5 maybe 10 knots. With no load I tend to rotate at 60 to 65 not 55.

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There are definitely a couple of users above that seem to indicate the plane is not mimicking real life performance. It sounds like it’s extremely fussy, which is actually pretty contrary to my understanding of how these planes are in real life. This and the Caravan didn’t get to be the reliable workhorse planes they are because the slightest deviation from the book had you drop a wing and crash. But yeah, I will definitely wait until this patch is out and see what the situation is then.

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Well the rotation charts people use do seem out a bit out with low loads, they are either for a different model Kodiak or the aircraft is stalling about 5 knots too early. Who knows ? Not my area.

The other thing to bear in mind is the devs said right at the outset that it was calibrated for the long throw yokes like the Fulcrum/Brunner/Yoko on the basis that it was easier for technical reasons for joystick users to soften the pitch axis then it is for long yoke people to accelerate it.

This makes sense to me, I use a Fulcrum (8" pitch) and do not have anything like the issues some people talk about. if it is not holding level after trimming I just nudge the yoke a bit and maybe tweak the torque.

They have said that after the next patch they will instead use a more compromise sensitivity curve which means people like me will probably have responsiveness issues, but joystick users should be happier.

As far as the real ones being forgiving to fly - I have no idea, maybe they are. I have never actually heard that but maybe. Of course Kodiak pilots are all generally going to be 1000 hour plus commercial pilots who strictly stick to the book, soooo observing videos of people like Ryan flying is not going to give you much idea how they behave outside the envelope. Forgiving for Ryan etc is not necessarily forgiving for a low hour private pilot never lone a simmer.

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I have a Honeycomb yoke.

I want realism, but this sounds like it has some issues… did you read the post above where the person was having trouble keeping the plane in the air on approach at lower power? That doesn’t sound right at all… and that doesn’t sound like a controller issue if you’re setup for approach and lower power (by the book) has it nose-diving into the ground. That sounds like a serious flight model issue.

Didn’t the vendor even admit they have flight model issues at low power?

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There are a lot of complaints in this thread that I do not personally have. Flight issues at low power are one issue I do not have. Low power you lose rudder authority and you sink quickly as expected.

Now issues at Low Speed MAYBE, when flying using Ryan’s charts the MSFS Kodiak, for me at least, seems (have not tested just “seems”) to incipient stall earlier than the charts would indicate by maybe 5 kts so if you were trying to follow the Ryan charts you would struggle. Low power would exasperate this as you would have no rudder authority.

Note I have not tested this, and also Ryan’s charts i use may be for a different Kodiak.

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That’s a good point really. However from my side I’m not a pilot, I don’t read or follow these charts, I definitely don’t do things “by the book” at the moment. I just dive in and handle it however needed. Probably make a lot of mistakes and would make a real pro cringe BUT with respect to the Kodiak I have never felt it to be acting in the way I’m reading above.

It is responsive. So you can keep it level / recover quickly if it does start getting out of shape.

Thinking now maybe it’s all about the controller. I use a very short throw joypad (I do have a desk setup with yoke but usually just play chilling with my handheld controller - never flown the Kodi with yoke) so maybe that is the reason of the different experience I have. If I notice a wing dipping or nose pitching excessively, I can correct it naturally with a quicker and larger sudden movement to keep control?! It may look ugly, but I don’t crash!

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Here’s the quote I’m thinking of… this is from the vendor isn’t it?

This leads me to believe the FM needs work, either on the Kodiak or at Asobo.

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Every aircraft in the game is a compromise. Fixing twitchy responses for joystick users will cause issues for yoke users. making low power adjustments easier means cruise pitch attitudes are wrong for the real aircraft etc etc. Tweaking the FMs to get rid of major issues is more an art form than a science. People like Pamela Booker are famous for a reason.

A lot of devs tend to err on the side of “easier to fly means less complaints” with Carenado being a good example. The logic is that no-one is using MSFS for real world familiarisation on type so err on the side of more forgiving.

Devs that try and get real world accuracy soon get to a point that fixing one thing breaks another, not just in MSFS in all sims. There are only a few MSFS aircraft that even try to be real world accurate rather than “close enough”. Examples I personally would say are above average in FM accuracy are the C310, the c414, the Boeing 247D and the Sting S4. I think the Kodiak is close and hopefully closer next patch. The JF Warrior II is pretty close as well.

That is without even covering issues of aircaft using POH that are not always accurate. In the case of Ryan for example i think he flies a Kodiak I and this is a Kodiak II so his number may easily be different.

Note that pretty much every aircraft I mentioned has someone complaining about some aspects of them.

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Not all sim pilots have the same equipment and the same skill level so I always take individual comments with a pinch of salt. If the general consensus was one way or the other that is generally a better indicator.

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Yeah, but I have found that some simmers are more interested in things like opening/closing doors and seeing the cabin with people in it, rather than flight model accuracy. I see a LOT of that infatuation with immersive elements here and people seemingly dismissing flight model issues. I’ll be honest, I love the cargo configuration elements of this plane, but not at the expense of making it unrealistic to fly.

I haven’t gone through this thread in it’s entirety yet, but has any real world Kodiak pilot chimed in on the flight characteristics of this plane in the sim?

I do know for a fact that a couple Caravan pilots were active during early modding of that aircraft in the sim, and it was judged to be decently representative (but not without some notable unimplemented features like prop feathering).

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I agree and I don’t doubt it’s an art to tweak flight models.

Are you agreeing that there are potential flight model issues with this aircraft?

It seems the vendor thinks so. A few reports recently here seem to suggest there is. I dunno. It seems like this plane and the sim perhaps needs some work.

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Absolutely, but not to the “the plane is useless” extent talked about here, it is still voted number one in the “Top 5” aircraft thread and has been for months.

Also there are very few if any aircraft in the sim without flight issues or inaccuracies somewhere when compared to real life and I doubt there is any payware aircraft that does not have at least one or two people complaining about it.

Even with aircraft like c310 or the Boeing 247D, both hugely popular aircraft that most people see as very well modelled there is always a handful of people angry with the devs about something.

The Kodiak has a few issues but overall is a good plane and I would recommend it myself. Some other people would not.

Note that the Kodiak is not really STOL, it is not a PC6 and it’s not a Savage Cub it is a utility aircraft for unpaved shorter strips, if you want a STOL bush plane that can land anywhere get something designed to do that.

If yu want some alternate options, - here are some of the aircraft generally regarded as having a reasonable accurate and immersive flight model - but not a single one of them is perfect:

JF Warrior II ( I have flown Warriors in real life this one “feels right”)
Quest Kodiak
Sting S4 (one of the best ultralights in game so far)
Cessna c310r (do not own, but people rave about it)
Cessna 414 (still in beta but some people are fanatical about)

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The 414 is no longer in Beta, and I agree that it’s a great plane.

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There are definitely flight model issues with the Kodiak. The real problem comes down to the core flight model as we’ve written many times. I’ll try to summarise it here. Before I go on a rant though, the plane was tested by Kodiak factory pilots and two Kodiak pilots on our test team and they attested to the FM being very good.

With FSX/P3D we used real dimensions and coefficients for our aircraft, which were usually found on academic or NASA literature. These worked well enough to get you 80-90% close to the real plane. We would then tweak for the sim’s inaccuracies and were able to get to a very accurate level when it came to aerodynamics. I can shamelessly say that the last beta of our T-37 for P3D was able to replicate everything the real plane could do in the air and this was tested by five pilots with lots of hours in the plane, two of them being instructors.

MSFS has a different approach:

You start with putting in the aircraft geometry and basic coefficients
You test-fly and you’ll be 60-70% of the way there in level flight
Stalls will be way off
You adjust the coefficients but it will make the plane twitchy or cumbersome, while improving overall performance
You then make the ailerons, elevators and fuselage bigger than RL if the plane is twitchy, or smaller if it’s sluggish
At that point, these extra square metres will make your plane more floaty and less prone to stall or vice versa
Back to coefficient tuning
Back to resizing the plane and so on

This approach allows us to get the envelope of a plane like the A320 or 172 close enough to be satisfactory. When you go into special aircraft, your edge cases will be off and the more “special” they are, the greater the error allowance. Example:

Kodiak: prop drag has been tuned using factory numbers and pilot feedback and it’s right on. Flaps were tuned with the manual’s climb numbers and are also accurate. Stall speeds are where they are supposed to be. Yet, when trying to maintain altitude at 800ft-lbs you can’t. Why?
Concorde: It is a delta wing aircraft, a wing type that isn’t supported at all by MSFS. How did Dean’s team do it? I had a look at solution and was astouded -I don’t want to describe it. Suffice to say that it works well enough, but from an aerodynamics perspective it will probably be off in many of the edge cases. If you fly it by-the-book it will do what it’s supposed to
Default TBM: It flies by the book, but the P-Factor is well reduced compared to the real plane. There is no torque roll effect in the plane. If you plan on flying it straight and level it’s fine, but if you go beyond that you start to see the shortcomings.
Stalls (all aircraft): You can control the stall AoA of an aircraft without messing up its performance much. There is no way to control the actual stall behavior, though. In FSX we could control what wing would drop, if it would drop and if or how a spin would develop. Gentle stalls like on the 172 were easy to make, as were weird stalls like the F-4’s roll reversal. Planes with a split wing like the Kodiak and Dash 7 can fly at slow speeds because the outer wing stalls after the inner, giving you more time with aileron control. MSFS has taken away these controls and we have to guess what it does when stalling, because its behaviour is scripted. We have some visual tools that show how the wing stalls, but not why and we have no way of accurately defining that.

The bottom line is that all sim aircraft are made with some leeway. MSFS has too much and it shows with special mission aircraft like split wing (Kodi, Caravan, Dash 7), delta wing (Concorde, Mirage, Phantom), taildraggers (bad takeoff handling), floatplanes (bad water handling). It far surpasses other sims on most aspects, but when it comes to FD it needs to give us a lot more contorl.

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Thanks for given us a peak behind the curtain, so to speak.

Could you comment on what A2A may be trying to do with their Commanche 250, and Accu-sim? Are they going to try to throw out the Asobo flight model, and write their own? If so I wonder if they cannot make that work on the XBox, and therefore this won’t be a Marketplace product.

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Oh don’t be put off. It might need tweaking sure, but it’s still one of the best GA aircraft in the sim. I get many nice smooth take off and landings and can
trim it well for hand flying. But it took time to learn and after 300 hours, still mastering it. Which is as it should be. A very satisfying aircraft to fly. I particularly like that the max torque is well modeled for altitude and temps.

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Thank you very much for your detailed response and the insights into the flight model limitations. It’s sadly not a surprise.

I will probably have a look into this aircraft and see for myself. I appreciate that real pilots feel it’s good.

However, maybe you answered this in a round-about way, but I still feel I don’t know the answer to this… is this the Asobo flight model again? It seems there’s not enough “leeway” here :slight_smile:

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I hear this constantly… but there are a lot of things that can make it the best GA aircraft that have nothing to do with flight model. As I said, a lot of folks are infatuated with the cargo and center of gravity simulation, others with the doors opening, many love the quality of the cockpit textures and the depth of systems. But if it can’t fly properly, then does any of that matter? It does to me. It’s not best if I constantly have to fight it to keep it from crashing. :slight_smile:

What’s “best” about it in your view?

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