Community feedback towards developers

I don’t think we should expect Seb and Martial to be able to paint an accurate picture of what Asobo have read and understood about every topic discussed in these fora. Their primary function is to lead the efforts, not to digest all the details.

A good example is the seemingly eternal thread about night lighting, where there is an abundance of valuable info for whoever may be assigned to make improvements to this. Just because Seb and Martial appear not to have much of that info available to them, doesn’t mean that it isn’t digested and fed in a suitable form to the involved programmers. I’m not saying that it is, just that we cannot tell from what we hear in the Q&As.

This is the downside of having the top brass show up on the screen to represent what Asobo are working on. They’re bound to appear ignorant of certain things that the floor people involved are well aware of.

On top of that, they both seemed tired and less prepared than usual the other day. Orchestrating a big update takes its toll, I’m sure.

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I would much rather ASOBO communicated with the 3rd part Developers, than with “The COMMUNITY”, AND if the 3rd party developers were the ones, communicating with the Community and were the filter/conduit for “relevant” information to pass back to ASOBO.

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That is true, but the problem is that it sounds like they’re working on a different problem than what people are reporting. I noticed this both with the night lighting topic and with the rudder issues. A lot of people are pointing out the crazy windmilling effect planes have when taking off with a crosswind. But what we see is the devs working on rudder dynamics in flight. Almost like they were only told “there’s a problem with the rudder”, they had a look at it, found a problem, and stuck with that.

Like i said in my first post, i don’t think they’re doing this cause they don’t care or something like that. If that’s what i thought, i wouldn’t have posted any of this. As such, i’m hoping to draw attention to this breakdown in communication.

I certainly hope they read the Questions before the (or a couple of days before :wink: ) the session starts.
So they can read up on our exact issues, and prepare for the answer.

If not, that needs to change.

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This resonates a lot to what I’ve been posting in the past:

Not long ago for SU3:

Also on the LOD topic:

Especially because prior to that:

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Having said this (my post above), I can’t help wondering what’s the point helping Microsoft and Asobo sometimes. To illustrate what I mean:

POI Very Late Rendering/Draw/Pop-In *SOLUTION FOR ASOBO TO FIX IN THIS THREAD* - #45 by CptLucky8


Congratulations to all in this topic nailing this one down!

Your comment about stop rendering then starting again reminds me something I’ve posted in the forum and Zendesk some time ago. I’ve observed the same pattern with Trees where as you get closer, they disappear then reapear:

[08OCT2020] Trees draw distance is different per-species AND per-Trees LOD setting
[16OCT2020] Some trees are disappearing then reappearing
[25OCT2020] LOD Problems - Distances revisited

Ironically, in searching these links in my activity history I’ve stumbled on:

(1) LIve Q&A - October 28, 2020:

Answering to:

Good God. Seb Wloch just asked for examples of the loss of LOD bug they introduced cos they can’t find it.

Live Q & A via Twitch - #49 by CptLucky8

(2) Live Q&A - January 27, 2021:

Commenting:

Being one among others documenting the exact problems with LOD and Trees for months, I was indeed quite puzzled they were answering as if they were just discovering there could be an issue with LOD and Trees. It is especially even more troubling to me that IIRC, in a previous Q&A the same topic was brought to their attention with the same reaction.

Discussion: Live dev Q&A January - #57 by CptLucky8


@Jummivana
I believe the question of LOD bugs can’t just be ignored again in the next Q&A and it is important this is officially acknowledged and being worked on once for all. We’re counting on you! :heart:

In Zendek:


Or this other example, where it took an enormous amount of energy repeating every single time the VR snapshot was not reflecting the community topics and votes, until this gets finally acted upon and corrected:

Discussion: March 25th, 2021 Development Update - #317 by CptLucky8

But there is still a disconnect twice in a row between what is listed, and what is reported (at least by me):

Discussion: April 8th, 2021 Development Update - #30 by CptLucky8

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Yeah, at the very least if they read the questions a day or two before the session (when the CM closes the subforum) they wouldn’t be surprised by ‘new’ bug reports.

Right now… there doesn’t seem to be much point to it. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and i am assuming they have good intentions, which is why decided to make this thread. I am hoping we can find out what the truth is here. Do they care about the wealth of information available here, on these forums? Or have they completely tuned out of the forums and are only taking vague cues from here? Their response to this, if one ever comes, should make it clear where they stand.

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I honestly believe your intention is not to nailing Asobo nor Microsoft at all.

I shall add (to make it clear about my 2 posts above) my posts are not meant to nail them either.

The topic subject matter is what can be done to make feedback from the community to the developers a better experience for both, with a better outcome for both too. I’m trying to illustrate that some of the difficulties are due to the specific technical nature of such reports and to the difficulty in assessing the problem form one side to the other, but I’m also showing that even with the most technically detailed reports, from my own experience, this doesn’t seem to help much either. I’ve been doing this for the community, along with “My VR” topics which are really helping a lot of FS2020 customers, but I can understand some are simply abandoning reporting because there is no progress whatsoever.

I do hope this topic, and the different problems posters are raising about reporting, are sufficient enough to make Asobo and Microsoft realizing there is a disconnect between what they say, what they do, and what they are delivering, and this disconnect is growing negatively on the community. However, the mere fact this topic is bringing both positive and negative comments is showing to me there are people caring about the franchise and lending a solid hand.

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A Game Designer is supposed to do this no? He designs features/ux, has an overview of the bugs, decides priorities and divides the work. He also has access and good knowledge of the code.
The problem is most companies cheap out on these designers, and honestly I feel Asobo does too. I actually even fear Seb and Jorg are doing a big part of this design while also doing a bunch of other stuff? This job is easily a full time job, if not a team for a project this big.

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You have to remember that Asobo has inherited this code from other developers. This isn’t a house that they built and have been living in since forever. This is a dark cave they’re doing their best to explore. But there are people in this community that have been exploring said cave for decades, which is why we get responses like the one you highlight.

As someone whose job it is to work on an enormous code base i can tell you that it’s pretty much a given that Asobo doesn’t have complete knowledge of the codebase (although i don’t know for how long they’ve been working on FS2020). But that doesn’t excuse them from accepting a helping hand from people who do have that knowledge and who know the root cause of bugs that Asobo haven’t even run into yet.

No one here is trying to bash Asobo. We’re all trying to help, each in whatever way we can.

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Is it not the job of the CM to collate / filter / understand and then present the issues to the developers in a cohesive fashion? I see too many questions on the Q&A that seemingly get confused and a different question seems to get answered as opposed to that of the intended original. This in turn gets met with “Awesome” and they move on. Morphing Mountains question ironically morphed itself into coastlines as a perfect example.

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Two problems with that, in my opinion:

  1. The CM needs to have time to go through each and every issue
  2. The CM needs to have the technical know-how to not only deeply understand the issue and the solutions proposed, but also to select the minimum necessary information for understanding the issue and the solutions, if any. Because how can you explain a problem in a short, concise manner if you don’t understand it yourself.

It’s obvious that a single person cannot have enough time to track as many topics as are being posted on this forum. And frankly, if someone has so much technical expertise that they can do the job, they belong in development, not in customer relations.

As i see it, the Community Manager should manage, not do the legwork.

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That’s the “Art of Deflection” – politicians are notoriously good at this – so are Business Executives.

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For the record:
I believe you would have to go a long way to find a better MSFS Community Manager than Jayne. @Jummivana

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I agree. Like i’ve been saying: this isn’t to bash anyone at Asobo or Microsoft. I believe they are very dedicated and are doing a great job. This is about opening up communication channels with some very knowledgeable people in the community in order to make things better for everyone.

Edit: And to clarify, because i think this is where the sore point is, i misspoke when i said “do the job”. I should have been clearer. I was talking about the task of collating the information available on the forums in order to produce a comprehensive report for the devs, not about the job of Community Manager.

I could not agree with you more, but sometimes asking for help appears to some as a sign of weakness, and a sign of your inability to do the job assigned to you – especially in some cultures.

This is indeed very unfortunate, because a small amount of the advise of experts, is worth so much more than a confusing mass of irrelevant advise from those that are not so informed.

Well, they reached out to WorkingTitle. I am ignorant of the details of that, but it did happen. They are also reaching out to AIG, so hopefully that works out. I am an optimist on this, so i’ll take those as signs that they are open to receiving a helping hand.

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Yes, finally open to receiving help and a “helping hand” , as anyone would be , in the immediate point of actually drowning.

But asking for, and receiving help is one thing - but at the end of the day, it is what you listen to and act on that counts.
(we all know where I am going with this, so no need to spell it out again)

That’s one of the “Realities” of the current situation !!

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Let’s not forget that while a number of users do write detailed posts with concerns they have, many of those also editorialize along with the info given by adding in value judgments and assumptions about the programmer’s ability or intentions, some rather rudely and dismissive. When that happens, you get this string of posts of people jumping on the condemnation bandwagon.

So, imagine yourself as the Asobo staff reading those comments. Human nature when you sense your integrity or abilities are being questioned is to not necessarily put tons of effort into making all those people happy but instead to get defensive. Often I believe that’s where the informational stuff likely gets lost.

My suggestion, if you truly believe you have an issue you actually believe there’s a fix for, is to state the issue clearly, make suggestions based on research you may have done, PRAISE THE STUFF THE PROGRAMMERS GOT RIGHT, and stay far away from those assumptions that someone is ignoring you or basing their priorities on profit, or are marginal in their programming abilities.

There’s a major difference IT staff members have in reaction to a comment comes in that says “you’re doing it all wrong. ABC software has that feature working well and so should you…” and “I don’t know if you’ve noticed in all your other work but palm trees in this location show up as lumps in the terrain instead of as a tree. Perhaps that type of foliage is not expected in this area and with millions of square miles you’ve overlooked this. I would hope this can be addressed.” The first comment is confrontational. The second simply states an issue that can be further investigated with some information to help track it down.

And when you post a respectful issue and 5 people jump on that issue bandwagon with condemnation, then try to dial them back and bring the discussion back down to Earth.

And news for you. Even if you do everything right in how you put in an issue, the importance you place on that fix, may end up way down the priority list the Asobo staff is facing. They are looking at big picture based on input from thousands of users, resources they have available to them, corporate pressure and contractual obligations. For any of you that have ever worked in a software production environment, all of this stuff should sound very familiar to you. Customers often send in requests that to them sound simple and quick and once you get into the code and QA processes, the work takes far longer to implement.

Bottom line to this is have patience and respect. The sim we have today just a few decades ago would have only been available to massive governmental or industry simulators and cost incredible amounts of money. Technology in our world has exploded in our lifetime and frankly we’re all a bit spoiled by it all. Programmers want to be challenged and most I know are their own strongest critics continually pushing the envelope. They want suggestions but like any other human don’t respond well to bullying and derision.

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