Force feedback support

Problem with two threads is they do not merge the up votes.

I meant fast start as in being able to skip all the intro videos. Asobo studios, etc.

You typically do this with adding -FastLaunch to the MSFS shortcut. Like so:

Also, I found the XPForce author. There is a thread there that I’ve posed the question of fast launch. I suggest you go there if you have a question.

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If you’re referring to the posts by @CONVEEN , they’re not conflicting. This thread is for encouraging the devs to add support, the other thread was to get them to comment on their plans in the live Q&A stream. Right now all we have is radio silence on the subject so it would be good to get the official word on what they plan to do, if anything. Unfortunately voting is closed for that now.

I reached out to Jim on the XPForce thread and he will be including a fast launch in the next version. He was quite quick to respond.

Yes, unfortunately voting is closed on that thread. We’ll need to keep this thread advertised and active as best as we can to ensure we keep voting open.

I have emailed Jim, both before & after I purchased XP-FORCE, and every time he responded within 24 hours … which is one reason, I went ahead and purchased his addon.

That, and the fact it worked well, when I ran in Pre_Purchase evaluation mode, before I made the actual purchase.

If you want non-response from a Force Feedback developer, try asking FS-FORCE for technical support … :frowning:

Just a quick note:

@Jummivana Force Feedback codebase is not there at all and I believe Martial is thinking about XBox Controller Rumbling instead. This has nothing to do with Force Feedback though otherwise I believe it would be picked up automatically if FS2020 is already implementing both XInput and DirectInput isn’t it?

Rumbling is an XInput feature:

Furthermore, XInput has support for force feedback with rumble, and just rumble. Calling the force feedback functions do nothing, and the XInput caps structure reports force feedback is not available. Xinput only supports rumble, not full force feedback. XInput was build to support the Xbox360 controller and only supports features those controllers provide, it has no provisions for additional buttons, axes or full force feedback. All that stuff from DirectInput was left behind to create a much simpler API.

Force Feedback is a DirectInput feature:

DirectInput | Microsoft Docs
DIEFFECT Structure | Microsoft Docs

Further reading:

It would be great if Martial would answer with the same level of technical knowledge and passion as Sebastian because there are lots of us looking forward to this level of technical information in the Q&A, and this would give a little more credibility to what is said in the Q&A too…

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I’m very confused regarding FF.

FS Playground works excellent for me.
XPF also looks ok.

Why so much noise regarding FF.

Well Frothy, i’m guessing the majority of people in this thread have at one point or another invested quite a lot of money in force feedback joysticks and hold the experience of actually feeling what an airplane is doing through the joystick so deer to their hearts, rather than waiting for noises inside the cockpit or the screen to wobble up and down to warn them of impending changes in flight attitude. It’s the combination of all these that is truly involving them in the flightsim… if either of those is taken out, it just doesn’t feel right.
Some games just portrayed such delicacy in the FFB’d periferals that it really helped in the experience of the flying experience. I mean, flying a combat airplane in a turnfight (last option in battle) on the egde of the flightenvelope whilst feeling what the airplane is doing is much more intuitive than seeing and hearing alone. FFB joysticks are the cheaper alternatives to actually feel what the simulator is meant to simulate.
(not everyone can buy a fully functioning flightsimulator which actually holds your entire body and moves it around, so the ffb sticks were sold quite alot in the past, before they were phased out by some patent-bs that was spread around…)
And seeing there are no new (“affordable” <$400,-) ffb joysticks hitting the market, we hold dearly onto our OG’s and wouldn’t want to switch any time soon if there is only one glimmer of hope to revive our old trusty ones, especially with this new-fangled, awsome looking, flightsimulator 2020 in our midst.
Hell i’d like a Brunner, i could definately afford one right now (world pending) , but if there’s not much fidelity to the force feedback that people would actually rant about, i’m not willing to buy it. First i’d like to feel proper FFB with my old joystick before i’d even consider a big boy like the brunner. Going back to playing with Rubber or springs as “forces” just isn’t the same thing once you’ve felt what true-to-life or whatever you’d call “active” ffb can do.

Personally, after seeing the Dev Q&A, I’m just wondering what kind of input Martial is looking for for the Force Feedback, maybe CaptainLucky8 above here is already on the ball with the input that could help out all of the old and hopefully some more new FFB sticks?

i think Martial said “so we had microsoft force feedback2 support on…” and then he changed his way of thinking mid sentence…
[ehr support on what? launch/alpha? ]" .

So there’s not really an answer to the question, apart from FFB not being a priority as all focus went to current peripherals and partners, that dont have FFB… but that the basis is in there, just waiting for input? Again, what input and can the community help out? I’m pretty sure we’ve got some bright minds in this thread and the contacts to other, even brighter minds as well. Just give us a handle and we should be able to help out?

Kindest regards and keep up the good work,

Steiny

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Thank you for your kind words! You have no idea how much input I give, and much more I’d like to give, but goes to deaf ears so it seems… I believe 20 years creating the gauge add-on business from the ground up, and building a unique and renown expertise on 14 different versions of 3 simulators is not enough.

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I am happy people have money to pay FFB from external progs like FS Playground and XPF. From my side, I am not ready to spend additional money for FFB (and share my system’s resources) which has to be an absolutely integral part of every “normal” flight simulator from my point of view. May be I am stupid and understand nothing, but I was not ready to discover that FFB is not included. Dear ASOBO, just do this, please. If FS9, FSX have FFB, why MSFS has not? How do you want me to trim the plane without FFB with current sensitivity system for axis and in the absence of repetition function for keyboard buttons (And we have axis only for elevator trims. Why do we not have axes for other trims in every flight simulator from Microsoft? Or am I really stupid because I am not able to reproduce the logic behind the decision not to do axes for all the trims as well as I am not able to understand the absence of FFB)? I hope I am not rude with all this.

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I believe the answer is simple enough given the amount of information we get in every single Q&A:

  • Do you believe you need any other axis given you wouldn’t be able to understand what an updraft is doing to your aircraft all of a sudden?
  • Isn’t therefore a single trim axis already enough for our gaming pleasure?
  • Besides, is there any available axes remaining on the XBox controller?
  • And in any case, is the XBox controller even supporting FFB?

:joy: :innocent:

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This all is pretty disheartening… I hope they’ll give us a bigger bone to chew on during the next Q&A, with a more precise question.

With that said, are third party softwares like FS Playground good enough for force feedback? I remember being pretty disappointed by the one I tried a while back, I think it was XPF…

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In my opinion, all 3rd party FFB tools will remain tools until the FS2020 SDK gives correct flying surfaces forces data like in X-Plane11 for example. Otherwise, you can approximate a “feeling or reality” with FFB but it will only be approximate.

It is the same problem with 6DOF consumer motion platforms which are rolling and pitching the platform according to the aircraft orientation, whereas they should only be concerned in orientating the platform so that the G force (real) is as much colinear as possible to the G force (virtual).

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Thanks Captain! I’ll probably wait until the SDK revamp then, there’s still hope for that kind of stuff to be included in it too. Even if it wouldn’t be native support, it’d still allow some people to work on a real addon at the very least

Yep, if you are in a steep but co-ordinated turn the motion platform should be level. In theory with a 60 degree bank you ought to be feeling about 2 G acting downwards but no practical motion platform is going to be able to simulate that more than momentarily, and definitely not throughout a sustained 60 degree turn.

I interpreted this as needing the data from the flight model / aerodynamics as input for the force feedback.

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here is the link to the latest Q$A video on Youtube.

1h17’20" about FFB answer

To all, bring the link of this forum post to any other sim forum you are a suscriber, WE NEED MORE VOTE !

WE NEED TO BE PLENTY !

Also, bring here any link tpointing to recent devices use in sim which are FFB, lets make Martial wrong !

Other sim are FFB, NOT MSFS !? WHY ?

But you can fake it some by making you sink in the seat.

In any case, have a look at:
Latest ms-force-feedback-2 topics - Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums

Quite some but unfortunately, this FFB2 question and the Q&A answers might just indicate this is an XBox game first and foremost build around a market place, and the PC version is just a by-product of the same code running on both platforms. Any device which will be supported in the XBox version is supported in the PC version and only those, because there is no DirectInput in XBox SDK.

Even the game menus and UI are so much XBox like and are not using the mouse pointer convenience to its fullest (anyone feeling better using the mouse wheel to change a slider instead of having to grab the small dot?).

And what about the question about DLSS (and the Q&A answer). It turns out if there is no DLSS in XBox/AMD/DX12U then no, their will not be DLSS support in FS2020 even if 85% of simmers are running on NVidia hardware (maybe not all on RTX though but nevertheless, quite a sizeable chunk of NVidia hardware with specific optimizations possible just for them).

I just wish their answers in the next Q&A are proving all this wrong with good news about things specific to the PC version which can’t be done on the XBox version for example, like the FFB2 support.

PS: no this is not a rant, I’m fine with FS2020 as it is, but I find a discordance sometimes between the PR materials and the implementation questioning the whole direction this simulator/game is really going both for the end user and for the 3rd party devs, which begs some questions.

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For me FFB is not only on the yoke or the joystick, FFB is for running my MOTION SIM, as other flight “game” do it.

I agree, MSFS2020 is more for XBOX than PC gamer, BUMMER !

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