Giving up on simming after update V?

Quite the opposite, SU5 got me back into flying after a long break. Performance is better than ever, plenty of great aircraft out now and definitely a more complete product than prior to the update. The sim has never been in a better place and the next few months look to be even better with the content they announced at Gamescom.

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Thanks for your thorough breakdown. Can we also consider not just the snapshot view but how the graphics are displayed over time? Not only are the distant graphics poor for me after su5 (hopefully to be fixed by a slider to let me choose draw distance over fps for my style of flying) but they are loaded in visual blocks in a very regular pattern which for me, and others, breaks the immersion completely. For me that is a deal breaker, i cant personally stay with msfs if it works that way. It didnt use to be that way.
I also think your bandwidth point very interesting. Yes many of us have high speed connections, however if the ms network is overwhelmed by players, or the ms servers are overloaded, then graphics ars going to suffer badly. Asobo must have been optimising for speed of xbox (which somebody else here has said are pretty good spec machines anyway) but perhaps an even bigger challenge was them optimising to take load off the network so they could cope with a deluge of new users.
I read previously people measuring the actual data transferred to and from sim, and it didn’t seem a lot, like it was already constrained by ms infrastructure and not broadband speed. Now that will have been constrained even further.
Has anybody noticed patterns of good/bad graphics at certain times of day (does it creek when many xbox gamers come on line?) Also I wonder if some countries are worse affected than others?
At paranoid moments I have actually wondered if ms can control data bandwidth/processing power based on your user. Not from the point of view that my bandwidth allowance has been turned down but that other peoples might have been turned up. That is utterly without foundation but i was grasping at straws to figure why some streamers, one video posted in this thread, seem to have brilliant graphics with no LOD issues. But lets not go down that rabbit hole.
I hope it isnt server load behind graphics issues for me because if it is then WU6 wont fix anything, and as per this post, i will stop thinking of leaving and just leave.
But lets hope it fixes everything and game goes back to the amazing experience it USED to deliver for my type of flying.

Thanks for letting us all know with your helpful post

Thnx Neo4316 for mentioning that - it has kicked me up the behind to go through all my settings to figure out why my flaps were dropping when I hit Esc. After SU5 it appears that I had a flap entry for “Joystick L-Axis-Z” added to my TCA Airbus Throttle quadrant settings (I didn’t put it there and I didn’t have flap drop on Esc before SU5 - maybe it was lurking but SU5 responded to it when it didn’t use to?)
Anyway, I deleted it and no more flap drop at cruise speed when hitting Esc :slight_smile:
Thank you Sir: one less reason to leave the sim… now just the graphics LOD popping, which a very kind person suggested a CFG file hack to solve, which I am checking out after work…
BTW. Before anybody jumps on me for suggesting I’d leave the sim just because of this - of course I wouldn’t - but all these cumulative having to “debug” what SU5 has done to your previously working beautiful sim just to get it working again like it used to get you down. I don’t have the time :frowning:

I’m glad it works for your kind of flying - enjoy!

Sure, that was my second point actually. Satalite imagery is different on different “zoom” levels. With zoom in respect to the sim, how close you are on the ground. Satalites take images from earth with different zoom levels so to speak (I try to simplify it, otherwise look at the end of this post with a link to bing maps tile system which also has other interesting menu links).

Example when i was flying over the saltiplano salt planes in bolivia. This is at image coordinates
-20,138332, -67,162336

I will zoom in at the red circle to try to make my point why the tiling is so ■■■■ obvious sometimes.

This is the image when zoomed in, it’s exactly the same image, but more crisp as i’m closer to it. This definitely looks like a textures which was used when i was quite far from the salt plane

I’m clearly able to recognize this because i was flying over that specific spot. But watch this,
We are getting really close, we are flying almost over that coordinate (couple miles out maybe?)

This is the exact same location, only one step closer zoomed in. You can see clearly the squared tile, these are individual images, taken at different times.

I explicitely choose the saltiplano in this example is able to show it in an extreme case.

  • The top left tile is overexposed under looks like heavy cloud cover. (it’s a salt plane, a tiny layer of water could do that).
  • The middle up square: There is no higher resolution “zoomed” in satalite image,
  • Look at the bottom, looks like a different month(year?)
  • etc… etc…

It’s a mess. And as with the sim. Garbage in, Garbage out. There is just so much AI can do. And this image is just about 500 square mile? 1969007 square miles to go (give or take). Let’s check them all shall we? but, times two at minimal if i’m corect, because the imagery used are different layers. Maybe three, not sure.

So, what i’m trying to say here is that at a big distance, you do not need that much detail. When coming close, you do. When the high altitude imagery (when you are far away), is at a different moment then the low altitude (sun light/winter period/extreme heavy cloudy (search venezuela on bing maps zoom levels, different cloud coverage on different heights, when flying there you see this, the coverage is so much it can’t be “fixed” by the AI trying to equal, zoom in/out on El Lechozo
9,293852, -66,683722
) you will see a massive difference. It also does not make sense to have high resolution high detail textures at far. You won’t be able to make up the details anyway. And because low resolution and high resolution satalite pictures are often taken at different day/night/week/seasons, there are places where you really notice this.

But, why is it tiled? Well, satellite images are tiled, and also is quite common.

Asobo is simulating viewing distance (like so many apps do) so lower resolution images in a distance is logical, as also with your eyes you can’t see the same details as when up close.
So, why do you see blurry ground textures when zooming in? In fact you are looking with binoculars. Unfortunately, at textures which are “far away” (like also many other apps). This where possibly the slider comes in or maybe two or three sliders. Texture and Objects, maybe also foilage, if i’m correct i have seen something about that on the whish list.

So as a response to the couple of connection/bandwith remarks:
Your or MS’s bandwith or server load is not the only reason: SU5, terrible GFX - #69 by scriptkid
Also, do not forget router memory exhaustion, Teredo issues, etc… My router has that exhaustion issue, causing all kind of connection bs (tcp drops, connection drops, etc…), especially when when everyone is doing something wired and wireless (combined 2.5 and 5Ghz). One of my issues have been someone in the family broadcast bombing my network.

But, also to be fair, i have seen dips in the MS network which often starts at those big boy border routers (for real time data). Next to that, textures seem to fetched from Akamai and/or Amazon aws. These are the guys which redirects users to “proper” servers providing best quality based on your/connection peers locations. Anyone correct me if i’m wrong here, but it appears that way.

Correct, they are purposed and dedicated in regards to gaming (although they can do much more, netflix etc). But because there have been optimizations for xbox which runs on windows (simplified here) with directx, pc users also benefit. Or better said are benefitting to much?
There have been a lot of complaints about memory usage, needing a beefy machine. So people choose to spend a s**load of money to get these. As did I, because i want the best of the best and do not settle for less (I lied, I refuse to choose for scalper and extreme inflation prices).
So, they have done rendering optimizations and please read @CptLucky8’s post on object detail (notice the similarities between far and close?)

But, I don’t believe the pc version has not been altered to fit xbox. It has been altered to our whishes, because, if you really want, you would be able to get it, maybe not as much as you would like. But, i was reading something about sliders? :wink: :

Bonus:
Bing maps tile system: Bing Maps Tile System - Bing Maps | Microsoft Docs

And again, nope. Not giving up on simming after V. In fact, started tinkering with electronics again after update V.

My two cents, cheers!

Edit: Corrected some bing maps links

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I finally got a chance to fire it up. And do a couple of random screenshots. In the mountains of Alaska. You don’t see the terrible way bit by bit it comes in, but because of the snow field it’s easier to pick out the issue on small static screenshots.
Flying along, you can see the poor textures in the fairly near distance. Keep your eye on the orange marked area.


A little while later sim decides to redraw that area. Not the entire screen, not the entire row, just an area (aka “blob”) in that vicinity. Note how close it is to the plane - this is not “far in the distance” nor am I that high. Note the purple circled area… coming up…

And then later suddenly a block around that area pops into place:

Imagine a mainly non-white scenery where this is happening in small steps at that kind of distance, then as you catch up with that area it starts again. It looks awful and totally unrealistic.
So there we have some screenshots to illustrate. Sorry everybody I should have grabbed them first before posting in haste.

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Thank you so much for the very long and detailed post, that must have taken you a long time to put together. It is much appreciated and it is great to learn, which I will take offline and digest! Understood on the satellite tiles, I’ve seen joins in the sim before, but hey, as you say, that’s that data in so actually I’m OK with that, I understand it. I’ve just uploaded some photos in response to another post on this thread, I don’t know if you can see them. But somebody very kind also PM’d me with a suggestion which I have tried as well. I’m luck here to have full 110Mb/s fibre, wired connection to myself (well after the working day is done - no family bombing here (your comment made me laugh :slight_smile: ) I think I will post a response to those separately but thanks yet again for your spirit to help.

Sure, no problem.

P.S. If i’m wrong somewhere, please tell me. A lot is based on assumptions when looking at the sim in a less fun way (but i’m tech greedy, so it’s still a bit of fun though), if you get my drift.

Edit:
Yes, noticed the screenshots, but these look way to close to be caused by satellite imagery. This could be in fact the object detailing itself which is getting more rich, affecting the textures.

I come from a programming background so it is indeed fascinating to see how they build it. Despite their tripping up (because of time pressure I am sure) it is incredible how this thing works (if only it could work a bit more like it used to :slight_smile: )

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That looks like the morphing issue people have been talking about. I flew yesterday over the alps just because I read people discussing it and it does happen. However, I have been doing a lot less just flying and enjoying and more trying and spotting the bugs and issues the people are complaining about since I started reading these forums.

Yeah, really. If i had one question to Jorg i would ask for a studio tour :laughing:

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The interesting thing is at what point does the system start to exist beyond the developer’s ability to understand what it is doing exactly all the time? Google lost control of their search engine ages back - in terms of if you ask them why does this result appear here they can’t easily tell you exactly why, just that their intelligence that they created using all these rules thinks that’s where it should be. Maybe one day the sim will establish it’s own intelligence and brain wash us all with subliminal messages it feeds us… such as M U S T F l y R y a n A i r… arggggh it’s a NIGHTMARE :joy:

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Don’t get too drawn in - it’s good to discuss and to learn but if you’re enjoying flying get out there and enjoy flying :slight_smile:

OK everybody I have replied to BubbaBlitz7348’s PM but I wanted to publicly applaud him for showing me how to bodge the LOD settings in a cfg file that make this LOD loading issue go away. So does my fps but we know that’s a balance - it’s not magic! - I need to have a play with that to get something that works for me and my kind of flying. I’m sure many of you won’t care but I’m hoping that is enough to keep me from bailing out until WU6 fixes this (possibly the magic slider Asobo have talked about will offer control over this?) OK there are a ton of other inexcusable bugs but I’m certain they will get on top of them one day. Thank you again BubbaBlitz :1st_place_medal:

In fact I feel hopeful so I’m going to get back onto my project to design and 3D print new inserts for the Thrustmaster throttle quadrant to shove the detents higher up thus enabling a decent range of manual thrust instead of the tiny (difficult to hand fly) range out of the box. I have a solution from somebody else but I’m hoping I can do a new design that refines that. If I can crack it I’ll post back as a new topic to thank the community for their patience (and help) with this (for me) almost deal breaking release.

I think your understanding of the slider etc due to come in WU6 is somewhat different to what they’ve actually said:

  • LOD Popping and Stutter when Camera Panning – PC Simmers with graphics set to Ultra will experience this when panning the camera around very quickly. We are working on a new option that will allow you to customize how much off-screen scenery will be cached. We are aiming for this to be released on August 24th (World Update 6).

I’ve illustrated the same problem with areas which are under censorship:

[BUG] Ground textures censorship and LOD - a possible solution - Bugs & Issues / Install, Performance & Graphics - Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums

I’d tend to think the best way to serve ground textures for the game would have been to down sample the highest resolution images on demand, or pre-storing them already down sampled, so that whatever the resolution you’re looking at they are all coherent visually. Instead, the game is using bing textures nearly as-is, as the Bing team set them up from different sources without any coherence between LOD levels sometimes. It is fine when using Bing maps on the desktop to plan your next route, but it is not fine in practice in the game like you’ve perfectly illustrated.

The suggestion I made above though is the reverse: because they are altering the highest res textures with generic patterns over “censored” areas, in this case what could work would be to use the last layer with the original image (non-blurred) whatever its resolution and then paint the “censored” area with it. Even if there would be a difference in detail resolution in practice, I’d bet it would still be better than the patchwork of generic pattern.

Of course, if instead of using a generic texture pattern they’d at least censor the areas using a more sophisticated algorithm like Content-Aware Fill* … :roll_eyes:


*you’ll find additional references in this topic:
algorithm - How does Content-Aware fill work? - Stack Overflow

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Ah, thanks for that. I had elevated the slider as a slider to end all sliders. Better
book some time to do some .cfg LOD setting tuning. Sigh.

After seeing MSFS barely able to load the World Map last night, terrible LOD (even with hack), constant drone roll, FSX style graphics at altitude last night, I gave up - uninstalled. I have better things to waste my time on. Good luck everybody, I hope you enjoy the sim as it has now become. Maybe in 6 months’ time I’ll check in and see if a miracle has happened. It was fun whilst it lasted.

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I understand your frustration; however, it is going to improve. My frustration comes from ATC constantly telling me to climb, not handing me off to approach and the tower. I would have just avoided using it, downloading the updates, and waiting for it to improve while I flew another sim. I hope you’ll be back.