Official Discussion: September 2nd, 2021 Development Update

The fact that some don’t understand this is sad. I envision them as the ones in the basement eating Hot Pockets. :joy:

I think you make the mistake, as so many do, of believing that the loud minority having issues are the typical user. They’re not.

I’ve had no issues or just a few minor ones. I’m a RL pilot and have been using FS for decades. This version is amazing.

So I tend to think those who are “losing patience” are the kids for whom this is a passing fad, or the wannabe airline pilots who think they’re a captain and have tweaked the crap out of the app to try and live out that fantasy.

I could be wrong, but this seems like the classic 80/20 scenario. 80% of issues are experienced by 20% of users who make 80% of the noise.

1 Like

How complicated it is does not matter. If its too complicated, then don’t start it. But certainly don’t release it with a price tag if its too complicated.

What is sad is the excuses involving how complicated something is which are null and void AFTER the product has been released.

If this were the initial planning stage/drawing board of development, then the “too complicated” excuse/debate can happen and be valid.

Right? RIGHT!

1 Like

And I’d add that not only has the scope of this version been unprecedented, but the pace of updates has too.

FS9 had 1 service pack. FSX had 2 service packs. Bugs like the terrain.dll bug went unfixed for years. Airport elevations were off. It was a generic world that took hundreds of dollars to try and make better. And even then it was just a better looking generic world…or a flat 2D photo world.

Most of the issues I’ve experienced are being fixed. The scenery drawing distance is probably the one for me that is most annoying along with the broken live traffic. They’re being addressed today or in the near future.

I guess if that’s not good enough for a $100 game, then there are other options for entertainment. Or you could spend several times that amount and go flying for real.

1 Like

You are very wrong again. All you have to do is read the forums. Read the blog from the 19th of August - why the delay for 20% of users since its just a bunch of “noise”.

Political correctness does not suit you well.

2 Likes

Nobody here has said that MSFS is all bad. But valid proven complaints of issues guard against what happened to ACES and other flight sims. We can’t just ignore and make excuses if we want this to last 10 years.

You think the few hundred (thousand???) people who post here or at Avsim represent the typical user?

And yeah, some of the posting is ignorant whining. People who have zero understanding of software, business, or frankly in some cases the real world.

Again…I’ve not had a single crash or serious issue. My performance actually improved and while scenery popping can be annoying, it’s minor.

But hey, what do I know. I’ve only been in the software industry for decades, been using MSFS for decades, and been a certificated pilot for decades.

And political correctness isn’t my style. That’s why I’m not being politically correct.

You might be right, you might be wrong, everything is possible indeed.

Most of the people voicing their issues in this topic for the last few days though, has less to do with the game failing to deliver what it is coded for (i.e. bugs), it is more about the title not living up to the expectation they marketed it for (i.e. flight simulation). These are two different subjects in my opinion which are easily mixed.

This has been discussed in different topics, but I believe what @aracines is referring to is this (follow the links from this post): Why do Microsoft/Asobo not appear as exhibitors on this year’s FSExpo in San Diego? - Community / Dev Q&A: In Review - Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums

PS: I’m copying the full posts below for the sake of having it all in one place:




EDIT: In case it is misinterpreted, the above is only constructive criticism. I do like the game for what it’s worth, and I do entertain myself with it in VR from time to time. However this doesn’t mean one can’t see its faults and communicate about those either, unless believing those will automagically resolve by themselves.

3 Likes

And again, I think some (and notice I always say “some”) people lack perspective.

I have the perspective of being in the software industry for decades, using FS since the Bruce Artwick days in the 1980s, and having flown in real life since the first Bush administration.

The scope of this software is enormous. It’s challenging. It evolves. I agree that basic systems have to work, and I’ve noticed some things like over-sensitive trim that are annoying at times…but it’s a $60-$120 game. It’s not a multimillion dollar commercial simulator.

The solution seems simple. Have two realism settings: one for people that want to fly airplanes and one for people that just want a fancy Bing Maps Explorer. Nobody has to be limited. But don’t sell me a flight simulator and then five months after purchase, downgrade it to a scenery explorer. I have issues with that. That’s a Bait and Switch.

3 Likes

And those multimillion dollar commercial simulators, and even the ones at flight schools that use modified versions of apps like X-Plane are on very controlled hardware and software bases.

MSFS has a huge matrix of hardware and software that it has to support. And let’s face it, many people tinker and screw up their own systems. Or they lock them down so tight they don’t work properly. Or they stay on old operating systems out of irrational fear that the new OS is a conspiracy.

Yes, and because it is like that for you, it has to be for everyone else, right? Everyone else is just whining or the vocal minority… You do realise that you do the same thing that you accuse the vocal minority of?

I never said they do. That’s why I typically use the word “some” or “most” in my comments. Most grown ups don’t go to absolutes.

I’m certain we all lack perspective in our own ways*. For example, I’ve been contributing to building this nascent industry back then, for the last 20 years, yet, MSFT is stalling our Market Place application since August 2020:

Official Discussion: September 2nd, 2021 Development Update - #52 by CptLucky8

PS: I’m not sure whether citing the B… administration is making yours or others point, because IIRC they marketed the WMD idea despite knowing there was none… :wink:


*Allegory of the cave - Wikipedia

Socrates explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall are actually not reality at all. A philosopher aims to understand and perceive the higher levels of reality. However, the other inmates of the cave do not even desire to leave their prison, for they know no better life.

1 Like

There were only a few of us loudly urging DTG to make the flight sim for all flight simmers, they did not listen. Flight simmers for the most part will just ignore a product they don’t approve of. So you will not see lots of voices complaining. FSW was shut down by a minority.

We don’t need to understand the software industry, all we need is for the feature presentation standards to be met. While we wait, we don’t need to have social issues pushed on us or other delay tactics. If there was clear evidence that aviation realism was the central focus then there would be no problem.

BTW the whining word is old, overly and improperly used, mostly by those who do not want to discuss the true facts. It is very unbecoming to be used by one of such large software/aviation experience.

And this is why I had to respond to you. Surely my responses to you have made sense to you. Not just noise.

1 Like

Here we go again.

Is it absolutely true that you have to breathe to live?

Since you do, and its an absolute, does that make you a child? Or is it childish of me to suggest such an absolute?

Absolutes are all over reality, nothing childish about it.

Please consider what you say more carefully.

They represent the Simmers (the ones Jörg Neumann referred to when he has stated quite strongly (and often)… “We are building a Sim for Simmers”.

6 Likes

Its rather very simple, assuming most here are the consumers, we do not need to know how complex something is or isn’t.

What we should be aware of and communicated to, are the expectations to what service level something should work, given it is deployed across very large user base.

If the platform is too complex, and needs to be restricted, and will in longer run be causing bad user experience, then it should be presented as such.

So we need a clear guidance what to expect, right or wrong.

We can have at that moment an informed decision what to do.

Having an argument of it works for some but not for some others serves no purpose but to generate baseless debate, if you can call it that.

3 Likes

We should start a collection of Jorg quotes. My favorite is telling us that the sim wouldn’t be diminished and that SU5 would be achieved through “CPU optimizations”.

2 Likes

Well, it’s starting to be a “dweilen met de kraan open” kind of thing. It’s just getting beyond critisism.

Just a simple explanation:
The product has been sold, yes, the product has a roadmap. A roadmap is an indiciation a product is not finished as long as it touches core functionality. As long as a product is not finished, there is no definitive “get it right with you guys first” to be identified yet.

If there was a roadmap only touching bug fixing and not core functionality, then, only then a product is finished, hence with bugs, but considered finished as new features will not be added to core functionality.

Asobo is walking a complex path here, an early release of a product with to compensate free world updates. It creates a lot of confusion with some, understandable.

But this product seems not to be a sprint, it’s a marathon. If this product was released without a roadmap, and communicated as final. The intensity in how complaints are brought could be up to a certain point be justified. But while the product is still growing having a roadmap, implementations by community input and continuation of the core product. Bugs will happen.

This does not imply these should not be mentioned and not brought into attention or ignored. Ofcourse it should be mentioned etc…

I believe this will still take for a while, some stomachs are possibly appearing not to be strong enough to be involved in an iterative product.

Edit: it doesn’t let me repost as a non reply as the message “to similar as you posted” stopped me from doing so.