VR users still second class citizens

I don’t get why people expect a better immersion with headset controllers. Pilots IRL don’t use it neither, they simply use their HANDS. To be able to control the cockpit directly with hands in VR via hand tracking would be the REAL game changer.

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The stuff of dreams

Whilst I agree we could do with some fixes and improvements to VR, what I remind myself of regularly is that VR was never planned for this sim - it was added quite literally as a kind of afterthought, when many simmers complained about its exclusion from the announced plans for the sim.

So I do give them some leeway where VR is concerned (even if I think they were pretty blind not to realise it would be a cause of major consternation) and accept that their priorities lie elsewhere.

The problem is that I haven’t booted up the sim since testing after SU5, except to update it (and then close it again straight away). So for me, and probably others, too, FSXX (why didn’t they call it that? Or were they too scared it would sound too much like what FSX turned out to be?) is synonymous with “don’t bother” in my subconsciousness, without even thinking about it I just glance over the shortcuts on my desktop and choose something else instead.

edit - just to be clear, I have thousands of hours in most sims and have very expensive kit bought just for sims, so it’s not like I’m just a gamer who also does the odd virtual flight.

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while this has to be the future (Oculus is on the right way with its hand tracking) the main problem actually is that you have to look at your hands to get a correct tracking.

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While I’ve generally been one to agree with this approach, it’s almost been a year since the VR release and it has received next to no attention from MS/Asobo since then.

One of the main reasons I bought this sim is for the VR support, but instead of getting better (or even staying the same) with each successive release it has gotten progressively worse, and none of the items we’ve all been voting for even have a planned date on the roadmap.

I’d love to continue just being patient, but my patience is running thin.

Indeed, I’ve posted this lately:

Some of these are small QoL additions which aren’t taking a lot of coding time either.

A few examples:

1- [BUG] FS2020 using 3D cockpit camera in VR - wrong horizontal plane rotation (ex: FBW A320, SALTY 747, ASOBO 787, SDK SAMPLE)

fix:
Just ignore any PBH values set in cameras.cfg when in VR mode… simple as that.

I’m wondering how this bug slipped through QA because as soon as you try any of these in VR you can’t ignore the entire world is slanted beneath your feet. It is a very visible and nausea inducing (or at least discomforting) bug for a VR game

2- [BUG/FEATURE] Cockpit Size and World Scale in VR

fix:
→ add a UI slider
→ use the value to offset/change both eyes projection matrices.

NB: SteamVR has added this a couple months ago but this works only with the SteamVR compositor.

3- [FEATURE REQUEST] Can you please add a "Sun Glasses" mode 😎 ? (not a joke)

fix:
→ Add an event you can key/controller bind (eventually add a UI toggle somewhere)
→ option 1: adjust the Tone Mapper to -1 stop (or -2 stops)
→ option 2: render a glass material quad right in front of each 3D camera filling the entire view (see this experiment for screenshots)

NB: advantage of option 2 is that if the glass material is in the “Official\materials” lib, users could mod the tint and strength themselves via a community mod.

4- Increase distance threshold to see other aircraft navigation and strobe lights at night

fix:
→ change the current threshold at which aircraft lights are no longer displaying (currently about 5nm).
→ if this implies having to also draw models farther away, then don’t draw the models, just their lights.


PS: I’m not lecturing anyone with the aforementioned fixes, but from a programming perspective these aren’t disruptive to the existing code base much, and are easy and fast to implement (at least since January 2021…)

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Yes… but until that technology is available and, of course, supported by developers, the VR manipulators are the next best thing. Way, way better than fumbling with a PC mouse. I’ve used them extensively in XPlane 11 and they work really well for cockpit switch and dial interaction. They are a fundamental part of VR immersion. Not just for flight simulation but for any other VR application you care to mention.

I have to say that’ I’m enjoying VR very much, especially after the performance boost of SU5 which allowed me to go to high settings instead of low/medium. At the current state, it just looks stunning. There are some minor bugs with VR like the mouse pointer and messed up reflections when turning my head, but none of them does affect my experience that much that I’d say I’d be a second class citizen. I’m also not affected by the reported over-exposure or shimmering, to me it looks perfectly fine on my G2. I’d never want to go back to a 2D screen.

Of course they could and will add some of the requested features which will improve the experience even further, but it’s not that VR in its current state is as fundamentally flawed as some people claim it to be.

Admittedly I never tried it with headset controllers in another sim like xplane, so I cant make a full judgement. But I use them sometimes to call up windows into VR, like navigraph, even on long haul flights. And when using them, it comes naturally for me to lay them down on my desk, as it is uncomfortable to hold them all the time. But if you need the controller again to change something or make a screenshot, you easily hit a wrong button on the controller. Had the WMR menu popping up on several occasions, as I hit the windows button by mistake when trying to make a screenshot. Totally immersion breaking! I am using the G2, which controllers are less handy than the Rift S ones though. While the sim is not programmed to be used with a mouse in VR without any flaws (like the arrow flying all over the place at times), the design of my mouse makes it very difficult to hit a wrong mouse button and my hand can rest calmly on the mouse for a while, when I know that I have to perform some interaction with the cockpit knobs. Mouse is not ideal, I know, but from my experience not too bad that it warrants a replacement by common VR controllers as they are now.

I’m sorry if this is offending you in any way because it is not the intent at all. This has been so much debated already in the dedicated topic about VR controllers that I still don’t understand why it always turn like this:

  • It is not because they’d add VR controller that all of a sudden everyone would loose mouse controller either (well I hope they wouldn’t dare, but who knows).

Why is it always coming to this in most topics, that people are fine with A but fear that any additional B feature would remove A?

I’m not quoting your post to highlight you in particular though, only that this A or B way of discussing these matters in the VR controller topic, instead of A and B, has been derailing the dedicated topic too many times in my opinion.

Because 88.5% of the Flight sim users don’t use/own a headset and with the recent influx of xbox gamers I can imagine the number is even lower.

Also: there is only a limited amount of time and manpower and quite a few wishes/issues. So it make sense they do the issues with the greatest gain for the most users first. This has nothing to do with a citizen class system.

From the Navigraph 2020 survey results:
image

This means 11.5% of Navigraph Survey respondents in 2020 were using VR instead, and I can’t wait looking at the 2021 survey results because a lot has changed between 2020 and 2021 for VR:

  • Affordability of VR with lower priced HMDs (Q2 for example)
  • Immersivity of VR with higher res HMDs (G2 for example)
  • Sustainability of VR with higher performing GPUs (30xx cards)
  • Viability of VR with X-Plane 11 Vulkan update

What would be more interesting in these forums though, in my opinion, is that you could tell us what is the percentage of FS2020 PC users using VR…

Same :slight_smile:

I can’t tell you anything more than what is publicly available. Sadly, I don’t have any inside information.

Still, my guess is that VR users are quite a minority, so it stands to reason the development focus is mainly on getting the 2D experience in order.

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I’ve thought along the same lines lately about Xbox and PC too…

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Not offended in any way :slight_smile: But where did I say that I fear that A would or should remove B? I agree that one should have both options fully available. If the implementation of controllers would mean a better immersion in the future, I would be more than happy! I just pointed out that VR controllers in the state in which they are now are in my experience (!) not necessarily more immersive! It also depends on what kind of PC Mouse you have (which is something often overlooked when this matter is discussed), a gaming mouse with a wheel certainly is better than a mouse without wheel.
And for chats on forums in general, it is within their nature that they sometimes go into a different direction and as long as nobody uses foul language or acts in a way offending others, this is something to live with. MS and Asobo are reading those posts, so they are aware since long that VR needs to become better (which is also my opinion btw!), so I dont think that this chat, as much as I appreciate it, will change anything.

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Well said. And it really has to be this way.

I would add that having only used VR since it’s launch, I don’t feel like a second class citizen. In my meagre opinion, VR has been one of the major successes of MSFS. It has largely worked since it was launched. It’s obviously more demanding than running 2D and so progressive performance enhancements to the base sim help me as a VR user immensely.

There are still glaring base sim defects in scenery, avionics, aerodynamics, weather and AI. ASOBO has a lot on their plate and need to get through that before adding enhancements that will only benefit a small percentage of users.

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I might have wrongly read your post, as in the following, in which case I apologize:

Whether they are necessary or immersive enough for one, and not enough for another, shouldn’t in any way in my opinion forces upon us only one choice. The crux here in my opinion is to have choice, not that one is preferring either or both choices. In other words, whether mouse is good enough or not, and whether VR controllers are good enough or not, a VR title without VR controllers support is already an anomaly in itself, the fact that some or many users would also prefer using a VR controller instead of a mouse is just a preference, not a need. The need though is wider support for input controllers and both mouse and VR controllers are needed in any VR “simulator” title for evident reasons of both immersion and user abilities.

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I totally agree that this should not be a concern, but with Asobo’s track record with updates so far, I can understand why some people are concerned that this might happen.

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I fully agree that both should be available! With the word “replacement” I did not intend that MS/Asobo should continue to have the mouse as only option, or offering the controllers as the only way, I was rather intending that I personally tend to prefer using the mouse. Maybe I didnt clarify this well enough. But we are on the same page absolutely! :slight_smile:

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if it would at least enable compatibility for pointctrl.

It can’t be that difficult to send one in fullscreen / window to the monitor instead of the two small VR previews.